Sexual orientation and sexual needs

[KyleS]

Okay, I'm another guy just came out of the "no posting, just watching" closet in this forum. Have to say this forum is just great

Well, let's get to the topic. I found someone said hiring escorts is like a therapy, and I didn't really understand it. But recently, I found it ture, although it's likely to be in a different meaning.

I am in my late 20s, I have just finished hiring an escort for the second time in my life, they are both wonderful BTW. But afterwards, it kept me wondering about myself, about a fundamental issue:

 

Am I straight, or am I gay?

 

I had a thorough analysis on myself, listing all the things that REALLY turns me on, all the things that not really turns me on, and all the things that turns me down, from both men and women. (That's not a pretty list, trust me)

 

And after analyzing them, this is my conclusion:

My sexual needs can by fufilled by: f**king lady c**ts (sexual behavior) + worshiping man muscles (mostly non-sexual behavior).

 

The two needs do not appear at the same time and there is in no way do I appreciate lady muscles (just like you love vanilla ice cream and roast beef, but you will never want beef-flavored ice cream).

And when the need is fulfilled, I don't know which need will come next. And I don't think I can be sexually aroused both to a sexy lady and a muscular guy at the same time, because they belong to two separate systems, just one at a time is good. (Having beef with vanilla ice cream may not be so bad though)

 

I don't know whether I fall into the category of "bisexuals", and I don't what to be categorized as "queer", I'm just not a fan of that scale theory.

I wonder if there are people like me in this forum. I have a relatively good job now and want to have kids and a family before I become 35, but what should I do with my needs? Am I going tell my future wife "Not tonight baby, I'm not in the mood of f**king you today, cause I really need to eat some man pecs now. Damn I need a huge escort on my bed!" ?

[+ Tarte Gogo]

Well, open relationships are certainly more possible these days than 50 years ago, at least the majority of the population have heard about them.

 

But they do imply you let your wife fuck whoever she likes, so you can’t be the jealous type.

 

As to putting yourself in a category... why bother? Your above description is perfectly understandable (I like sexual intercourse with women, but I also like spending intimate times with a muscular man), no need to have a single word like “queer” or whatever.

[+ bashful]

I don't what to be categorized as "queer",

As to putting yourself in a category... why bother?

 

Don't assign yourself to any category. There are those of us who have enjoyed intimacy with both a man and a woman . For me, it's been solely with one at any period of time. If I've learned anything in my 60 years on this planet, we're all a work in progress.

[+ FreshFluff]

Okay, I'm another guy just came out of the "no posting, just watching" closet in this forum. Have to say this forum is just great

 

Welcome to the forum, Kyle. There are a lot of guys in your situation.

 

I wonder if there are people like me in this forum. I have a relatively good job now and want to have kids and a family before I become 35, but what should I do with my needs? Am I going tell my future wife "Not tonight baby, I'm not in the mood of f**king you today, cause I really need to eat some man pecs now. Damn I need a huge escort on my bed!" ?

 

It’s more problematic than that. Kids need their father, and few women are going to tolerate your going out and worshipping muscle when the kid is asking to play with daddy. Plus, if your desires turn sexual, that will make things even harder.

 

Why do you want a wife and kids? Is it a strong drive or something you feel you should do?

[KyleS]

Thank you guys, I really appreciate your replies!

 

About FreshFluff's question, actually I like women, I can be emotionally engaged and physically attracted, like stereotype straight guys do. I can't call it a strong drive but it is natural for me to get married and have kids, these are things I would like to do, aside from my sexual needs.

I'm just saying the "hobby" or "fetish" that I have for muscle guys is kind of making things more complicated, and I'm not sure whether it will go away if I really get married, or whether should I get rid of it.

I like muscular guys, I am sexualy aroused by them, but I'm neither looking for a penatration , nor looking for a relationship from them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of anuses. (Sorry folks, but not for me)

Or maybe the best solution is to pretend to be 100% straight and jo over gay porn when no one's watching, just like some other people in the closet do.

Edited February 4, 2018 by KyleS

[+ FreshFluff]

I get what you're saying, Kyle. You like men and women in different ways. I wish I had a better answer for you.

 

I'm a straight woman, but maybe some of the men here who have been with both men and women, like @purplekow and @BasketBaller , can weigh in.

[LaffingBear]

Dont get hung up on labels.

 

You're a pussy-loving, man-muscle fan. Better yet... you're you.

 

A female wife is not the only path to kids and a family.

 

As long as youre safe, and honest with yourself and the world around you, dont get hung up on norms. You could live with a man, and father children with a woman, with an active parenting role. You could adopt. The right woman could agree to live with, bear and raise children with you, and be very open minded if you have occassional male sexual needs. How would you feel if you married a woman, and she told you she wanted lesbian sex occassionally?

 

In your 20s... dont obsess over fitting into societal boxes.... be yourself.

[TruthBTold]

Kyle welcome to the Forum. Of course, not really knowing you it is hard to speak to your concerns. However, I am just getting this feeling that you may not being totally honest with yourself. That there may be something holding you back from accepting some basic things in your nature because of the consequences what they may mean for you. I think that you have a good grasp on the notion that you have to decide what you need and what you really want. For example, there are many gay men (if we are going to put people in categories) that do not fuck. They are perfectly happy to perform oral and it is the person that they are with that still makes them happy and satisfies them. The fact that you came to seek out these outlooks makes me believe that there is something deeper you would like to find and that your current situation may not be where you actually want to be. Then again maybe it is. All I am suggesting is that you really need to look at everything and not be afraid to lose some things because in the end you will end up gaining others (perhaps happiness and satisfaction). I am not trying to sound dire because you are young and have plenty of time to think. We can change our whole life.

[+ purplekow]

Kyle welcome.

 

I was happy in my marriage to a woman and if she had not died, I contentedly would have lived my life in a monogamous loving relationship with her. After her passing, and for reasons too involved to go into again on this forum, I started seeking out muscular men for fun and sexual pleasure.

 

At first, as in your situation, these were mainly encounters for admiring and appreciating the body of a man who had worked long hours to develop a hypermasculine physique. As I played with men more often, I recognized that I needed to expand the depth and variety of those interactions. I became less afraid and more adventurous. Once my fear was confronted and seen as guilt and self doubt, I was able to minimize it. Once I accepted that I am able to enjoy many different kinds of pleasure, I was able to do just that. Now, sometimes, I am content with the most vanilla of experiences, but many times I want a lot more spice and at times my wants might even spread to what some consider kink. I embrace them all.

 

My sexuality, and I believe the sexuality of most of us here, is evolving. Sometimes it evolves in ways I never could have predicted. Based on the questions you are asking, I think that will be true of your life. As such, I say that you should not expect what you do now to be the same as what you will be doing 5 years from now. What you want now, will not be what you want in the future. How you see yourself now, will not be how you view these years in retrospect.

 

In recognition of the vicissitudes of my sexual awareness, I have stopped trying to classify and codify my desires. Instead I just recognize them as my desires and I work on fulfilling them. I advise you to do the same.

 

As for the future, you do not have to give up your hopes of a future spouse and family. I would advise you to be totally honest with yourself about your desires and eventually you will need to be bluntly honest with your partner. Early in any relationship with long term potential, you need to say something like" "I like men and I like women". It might not be conversation for the first date, but it should be an early conversation. The longer you wait to discuss it, the more difficult it will become to broach the subject.

 

You are a young man. You may expect that you should have the answers to many of life's riddles, especially to a question as seemingly simple as "What is my sexual orientation?". I can assure you, you have very few answers and most of those answers will change as you age. By the time you reach my age, you will realize, that the answers aren't important. That answers are transient illusions and that life is never steady and safe and sure. Life is a changing amorphous existence swirling through time and the best we can do is enjoy the ride. Do not crowd out the potential for enjoyment with self doubt, fear and self recrimination. That is not to say that you should push headlong thoughtlessly in the pursuit of pleasure, but do not be afraid to do it once in awhile. Enjoy those things that bring you pleasure and do not be afraid of what others think. Do not restrict your present day with past standards.

 

I wish you luck as you move ahead. When there is doubt, seek out counsel from the wise people around you and from inside your soul. Ultimately, you know what you should be doing, do not be afraid to admit it. Do not be afraid to do it.

Edited February 4, 2018 by purplekow

[KyleS]

Enjoy those things that bring you pleasure and do not be afraid of what others think. Do not restrict your present day with past standards.

 

Thank you so much for the reply! I had no idea that you have such bitter life experience...

 

I believe it's true. I have various needs, what I should do is to acknowledge them, admit them, even if they might not be accepted by the major society. And if I find someone who likes me and even accepts who I am, this person will be the one I'll treasure for the rest of my life.

[TruthBTold]

Kyle welcome.

 

I was happy in my marriage to a woman and if she had not died, I contentedly would have lived my life in a monogamous loving relationship with her. After her passing, and for reasons too involved to go into again on this forum, I started seeking out muscular men for fun and sexual pleasure.

 

At first, as in your situation, these were mainly encounters for admiring and appreciating the body of a man who had worked long hours to develop a hypermasculine physique. As I played with men more often, I recognized that I needed to expand the depth and variety of those interactions. I became less afraid and more adventurous. Once my fear was confronted and seen as guilt and self doubt, I was able to minimize it. Once I accepted that I am able to enjoy many different kinds of pleasure, I was able to do just that. Now, sometimes, I am content with the most vanilla of experiences, but many times I want a lot more spice and at times my wants might even spread to what some consider kink. I embrace them all.

 

My sexuality, and I believe the sexuality of most of us here, is evolving. Sometimes it evolves in ways I never could have predicted. Based on the questions you are asking, I think that will be true of your life. As such, I say that you should not expect what you do now to be the same as what you will be doing 5 years from now. What you want now, will not be what you want in the future. How you see yourself now, will not be how you view these years in retrospect.

 

In recognition of the vicissitudes of my sexual awareness, I have stopped trying to classify and codify my desires. Instead I just recognize them as my desires and I work on fulfilling them. I advise you to do the same.

 

As for the future, you do not have to give up your hopes of a future spouse and family. I would advise you to be totally honest with yourself about your desires and eventually you will need to be bluntly honest with your partner. Early in any relationship with long term potential, you need to say something like" "I like men and I like women". It might not be conversation for the first date, but it should be an early conversation. The longer you wait to discuss it, the more difficult it will become to broach the subject.

 

You are a young man. You may expect that you should have the answers to many of life's riddles, especially to a question as simple as "What is my sexual orientation?". I can assure you, you have very few answers and most of those answers will change as you age. By the time you reach my age, you will realize, that the answers aren't important. That answers are transient illusions and that life is never steady and safe and sure. Life is a changing amorphous existence swirling through time and the best we can do is enjoy the ride. Do not crowd out the potential for enjoyment with self doubt, fear and self recrimination. That is not to say that you should push headlong thoughtlessly in the pursuit of pleasure, but do not be afraid to do it once in awhile. Enjoy those things that bring you pleasure and do not be afraid of what others think. Do not restrict your present day with past standards.

 

I wish you luck as you move ahead. When there is doubt, seek out counsel from the wise people around you and from inside your soul. Ultimately, you know what you should be doing, do not be afraid to admit it. Do not be afraid to do it.

 

As usual, I soak up all that PK says as true. The other thing that you are lucky for is that as you evolve society also evolves. Earlier decades were not as easy (and I am not suggesting that it is easy now) so you have that going for you. You can feel that much better about yourself. We would have had to sneak into seeing Call Me By Your Name and feel somewhat ashamed at watching it. Now people plunk down their $12 and walk right in. Some with their girlfriends. I would like to emphasize something PK brought up. As with all relationships, you are not in it alone. That has its good parts and bad parts. However you have responsibilities toward them, foremost being honest. People can take a lot but usually they cannot abide being lied to. For example, if at some point you are with a woman who you want to spend an ongoing time with you would absolutely need to tell her that you have these desires and needs and they must be part of your life. Nowadays I have noticed your partner may say, "Cool, I just want to also be there to suck his cock and yours and kiss his muscles and yours." Much stranger things have happened. Or your partner may say, "Nope, doesn't work for me, sorry." Then you just have to make a desire with the knowledge that first and foremost you have the obligation of honesty. It sounds like you have accepted the greatest desire, i.e., the desire to do the right thing. Like PK, I wish you the best of luck and you should know that there are many people on the Forum that have gone through the same thing at one time or another. You can ask about a small problem and then make a decision.

[rvwnsd]

Welcome, @KyleS. I whole-heartedly endorse and echo what others have said in regards to labels. You are YOU. There is no need to affix a label like "gay" or "straight" or "bi" or "queer" to yourself. People like to put things in boxes and they want to do the same with other people. You do not have to buy into that. In fact, I'll go one step further and say you shouldn't.

 

It is impressive to see that you have taken a thorough, analytical approach to understanding what turns you on sexually. Hold onto it and re-visit it on a regular basis, as your desires might very well change over time. You should also take that same thorough, analytical approach to understanding whether marrying a woman and having children is right for you. The following line is what drives me to say that:

 

...I can't call it a strong drive but it is natural for me to get married and have kids, these are things I would like to do, aside from my sexual needs...

 

The question on my mind is the notion that it is "natural" to get married and have kids. You should explore that one a bit more and understand where that comes from. Not to be too nit-picky (well, OK, I'm being nit-picky - it is who I am) but who says it is natural and is that to say not getting married and having kids is unnatural? (Not trying to put you on the defensive - just something for you to explore.) You might also want to explore whether you actually like being around children and will like being a father. True story - my sister-in-law likes kids but does not like being a mom. She pretty much sucks at it. My brother likes kids, likes and loves his kids, and is really "into" being a dad (and a mom, too, sometimes). If he could be a professional father he and a bunch of kids would be better off for it. I, on the other hand, recognize the value of children in preserving the human species but honestly don't like being around most of them. My niece and nephew and wonderful kids (and I mean that - my brother and sister-in-law raised them well) and I like spending time with them, but thank God I can go to my home and they stay in their home. If you have kids you, unlike me, will NOT be able to leave them in their home unless you fathered kids with a woman and do not live with them. Which, of course, is an alternative to being in a male/female marriage where you, your spouse, and the kids all live together.

 

When it comes to dating, I feel that being honest relatively early is the best option. No, I don't think discussing your desire to be with bodybuilders is a first-date topic, but when things look like they are moving into "dating" territory that conversation should be had. You might want to seek out dating venues for people who identify as bisexual, so as to find someone who will be more understanding of your wants and needs because they might have complimentary wants and needs.

 

...Or maybe the best solution is to pretend to be 100% straight and jo over gay porn when no one's watching, just like some other people in the closet do.

 

Oh no, this is NOT a solution. It is a recipe for disaster. Don't even entertain the idea. You are signing yourself up for a lifetime of guilt and the feeling that you are sneaking around. You also set yourself up for being found out and having to engage in a very difficult conversation that will NOT be fun. If you think having a conversation with a potential girlfriend/wife is hard, think about how hard that conversation would be in twenty years when she is your wife and the mother of your kids.

 

Which leads to this question: Do you date women that turn into romantic relationships or do you do date-like stuff together, fuck around, and then when one/both of you gets bored go your separate ways? The question isn't intended to be a barometer of sexual orientation, but rather of whether you really want to have a romantic relationship with a woman.

 

I know this has given you more questions than answers, but the ore questions one asks the more answers they receive. those answers, when stitched together, can be very valuable and insightful.

[Guest SimonL]

I like both. Married with a family. The urge for male connection was not removed by marriage to my beautiful girl. I thought it would be, but it has always lingered. Be honest with your future partner, it will save you a lot of personal guilt. I have gotten to the point that I would destroy too many lives if I was open about my dual preferences so I engage with men secretly as I travel. I have read a lot of material that suggests I am selfish and dishonest. So I practice safe and discreet sex with male partners with no long term connections and it helps keep me happy and oddly committed to my family without resenting them. As others have said, you need to understand yourself and what you want and don't let others prescribe what is right or normal. But if I had to do it all again, I would be upfront earlier with my partner about my preferences. As time passes and lives intertwine, it is much harder to hurt the ones you are in a relationship with as you would then be destroying their life at the expense of your openness. Hope that gives you some perspective from someone who was in your dilemma 30 years ago this year.

[rvwnsd]

...I have read a lot of material that suggests I am selfish and dishonest....

 

There's nothing wrong with being selfish from time to time. In terms of being "dishonest," I'd say your were not being completely open and, at this point, I think you should remain being less than completely open for everyone's benefit. One of the things we tell guys in our coming out group is that the only person to whom you need to come out is you. Everyone else is optional. It is easy for others to label you as being "dishonest." I'll use the same label with them, as they do not acknowledge the consequences of being "honest."

[+ sniper]

If you don't actually want to have sex with guys and body contact satisfies you could you possibly scratch the itch with sports? Rugby, Jiu jitsu, etc, are hobbies a lot of straight men have that involve a lot of contact. If you actually need to get more naked with them...um, water polo?

[Kenny]

no need to have a single word like “queer” or whatever

I think queer is actually the perfect word, since it describes a significant difference from the social norm. KyleS, from his OP, certainly seems queer. You too. (#metoo, so to speak.)

[TruthBTold]

There's nothing wrong with being selfish from time to time. In terms of being "dishonest," I'd say your were not being completely open and, at this point, I think you should remain being less than completely open for everyone's benefit. One of the things we tell guys in our coming out group is that the only person to whom you need to come out is you. Everyone else is optional. It is easy for others to label you as being "dishonest." I'll use the same label with them, as they do not acknowledge the consequences of being "honest."

 

I would have to disagree here. This would assume both that the other person does not suspect/know about what is going on and that what you are doing is for their benefit. If you are not honest, they may be hurt. Not being totally honest does not give them a chance to make a decision they may wish to make. As I said previously, they may surprise you with the decision they make. Certainly, we all have a right to be selfish. We can have that extra piece of cake or smoke a cigarette when we like. What we don't have a right to be selfish about is a situation that involves the feelings of others so directly. If you feel that you need to have sex with men then tell your partner that. You don't have a right to be selfish and skirt the issue. I have learned this the hard way. I was living with someone and the sex was starting to get a little stale. We talked about it but I did not think it was getting better. So I decided to be selfish and go out very occasionally to satisfy my craving. My partner found out eventually and that was that. The ironic thing was that after he found out he said that he would have been just fine with the occasional threesome and actually he felt the same thing. So, I do not think you have a right to be selfish when it involves the intimate emotions and feelings of others.

[+ purplekow]

If you don't actually want to have sex with guys and body contact satisfies you could you possibly scratch the itch with sports? Rugby, Jiu jitsu, etc, are hobbies a lot of straight men have that involve a lot of contact. If you actually need to get more naked with them...um, water polo?

I am not familiar with all the rules of those sports, but I am fairly sure that eating man pecs is not in any of those rule books. Sublimation is not a long term solution. Though rugby and wrestling are great sports, once one has the erection from those interactions, an itch is created, an itch that needs to be scratched.

[+ WilliamM]

worshiping man muscles (mostly non-sexual behavior).

 

I started seeking out muscular men for fun and sexual pleasure.

 

Interesting. I am 100 percent gay but have never been attracted to super or semi muscular men. Ever.

Edited February 5, 2018 by WilliamM

[+ purplekow]

Interesting. I am 100 percent gay but have been attracted to super or semi muscular men. Ever.

In context, it seems you mean you have never been attracted to semi muscular men. That there are men who do not find muscular guys attractive is great....more for me.

[gallahadesquire]

A friend and mentor was married. His eyes had always wandered. When a talked with his wife, she said that she could have dealt with it if it were another woman, but a man … she just couldn't compete

[MikeyGMin]

I would have to disagree here. This would assume both that the other person does not suspect/know about what is going on and that what you are doing is for their benefit. If you are not honest, they may be hurt. Not being totally honest does not give them a chance to make a decision they may wish to make. As I said previously, they may surprise you with the decision they make. Certainly, we all have a right to be selfish. We can have that extra piece of cake or smoke a cigarette when we like. What we don't have a right to be selfish about is a situation that involves the feelings of others so directly. If you feel that you need to have sex with men then tell your partner that. You don't have a right to be selfish and skirt the issue. I have learned this the hard way. I was living with someone and the sex was starting to get a little stale. We talked about it but I did not think it was getting better. So I decided to be selfish and go out very occasionally to satisfy my craving. My partner found out eventually and that was that. The ironic thing was that after he found out he said that he would have been just fine with the occasional threesome and actually he felt the same thing. So, I do not think you have a right to be selfish when it involves the intimate emotions and feelings of others.

I couldn't agree with you more. When it involves another person you don't have the right to be dishonest so that you can have your cake and eat it too. You don't have the right to destroy other people's lives because you don't have the courage to be honest.

 

One of my nieces has just gone through the trauma of finding out that her husband was playing around with men on the side. I do have some sympathy for older guys who married young in an attempt to suppress their desire for men, but this little scumbag was only 25 years old when they married 5 years ago. There is no excuse in this day and age to go into a marriage with such an important secret.

[HotWhiteThirties]

I like both. Married with a family. The urge for male connection was not removed by marriage to my beautiful girl. I thought it would be, but it has always lingered. Be honest with your future partner, it will save you a lot of personal guilt. I have gotten to the point that I would destroy too many lives if I was open about my dual preferences so I engage with men secretly as I travel. I have read a lot of material that suggests I am selfish and dishonest. So I practice safe and discreet sex with male partners with no long term connections and it helps keep me happy and oddly committed to my family without resenting them. As others have said, you need to understand yourself and what you want and don't let others prescribe what is right or normal. But if I had to do it all again, I would be upfront earlier with my partner about my preferences. As time passes and lives intertwine, it is much harder to hurt the ones you are in a relationship with as you would then be destroying their life at the expense of your openness. Hope that gives you some perspective from someone who was in your dilemma 30 years ago this year.

 

Thanks for sharing this, Simon. I very much identify with these thoughts and it helps to read someone else articulate them so well.

[Zapped]

I was married to a great woman for a number of years. She was well aware of and quite supportive of my attraction to men and for a few years we tried a relationship in which I'd have safe, non-attached contact with guys. It worked for a while, especially for me, as I allowed myself to enjoy it and not feel guilty. After a while, she realized it wasn't really working for her. We eventually got divorced while remaining close friends, and we've each remarried wonderful men.

 

It's "natural" for some of us to want to marry a woman and have kids (definitely not natural for everyone, and certainly not for most of us here). I really enjoyed being married to a woman, and being part of the whole traditional (well, maybe for us it wasn't entirely traditional) family culture.

 

Had same-sex marriage and same-sex couples raising kids been as big and accepted part of the culture in 1985 (when I got married) as it is now, maybe things would have been different. But maybe not! My inner life and sexuality? It's complicated.

 

Kyle, you were quite clear--you love having sex with women AND being with muscular men (and I'm deducing/projecting that you either jerk off while exploring/watching or the other guy jerks you off while you feel his muscles, both of which I've enjoyed with muscle studs). You may find a woman who is cool with that. Life is interesting.

 

Years ago I met another married guy in the small town where I live who wanted to explore his attraction to men. His wife encouraged it, especially because she had a thing going with another woman. He, sad but not surprisingly (especially 20+ years ago) was so conflicted he couldn't make it work for himself. We met once. A month--a month!--later he called me to say he couldn't see me anymore because "our relationship is taking up too much time and I need to be with my kids." Well, it was his obsessing about the possibility of a relationship that took up the time--we'd spent maybe an hour together, once. He's never, ever, made eye contact with me or returned a smile in the years since. (In a small town you can't help but run into just about everyone from time to time in the supermarket or, when our kids were kids, school functions, etc.).

 

I always thought his wife would have had an easier time if he'd just found a guy to have sex with and accepted himself. There's another guy I know who seems happily married in many ways. Loves his wife, kids, and grandkids. He used to hit on me all the time, until I married a guy and told him we were monogamous. He says he and his wife hadn't had sex in many years, and that she says she doesn't like it (which is not surprising, knowing him). She looks the other way, and they have an older-generation don't ask, don't tell sort of thing going.

 

Not optimal, but couples find their own ways of adjusting to realities.

 

You, Kyle, may well find your desires and comfort level evolve overt time, which is also quite "natural!"

 

And I agree with everyone who has said there's no need to label yourself. Letting go of labels is freeing. You are who you are.

[+ sniper]

I am not familiar with all the rules of those sports, but I am fairly sure that eating man pecs is not in any of those rule books. Sublimation is not a long term solution. Though rugby and wrestling are great sports, once one has the erection from those interactions, an itch is created, an itch that needs to be scratched.

 

I was actually basing my suggestion on my own experience of playing rugby. I found the intense contact and exhaustion seemed to quell my libido. I had much less sex when playing rugby than when I wasn't. And I wasn't getting erections on the pitch.