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Was Poland responsible and complicit for Nazi atrocities? A new law would make saying that illegal.


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Was Poland also responsible and complicit for Nazi atrocities? A new law would make saying that illegal.

 

JERUSALEM/WARSAW (Reuters) - Israel's prime minister and Holocaust survivors on Sunday bridled at a draft Polish law that would make it illegal to suggest Poland bore any responsibility for Nazi atrocities committed on its soil.

 

The Israeli foreign ministry summoned Poland's charge d'affaires - the ambassador was abroad – to object to the bill, which is still going through parliament.

 

"We will under no circumstances accept any attempt to rewrite history," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in lengthy public remarks to his cabinet.

 

Netanyahu and Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki talked by phone late on Sunday, the Israeli leader's office said, and they "had agreed to open immediate dialogue between teams from both countries to try to reach understandings on the legislation."

 

Before World War Two, Poland was home to Europe's largest Jewish community of some 3.2 million. Nazi Germany attacked and occupied Poland in 1939 and later built death camps including Auschwitz and Treblinka on Polish soil. Most of the Jews that lived in Poland were killed by the Nazi occupiers.

 

The Polish government said in a statement the legislation aimed to stop the Polish people or state being blamed for Nazi crimes

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-poland-clash-over-proposed-holocaust-law-165356819.html

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Was Poland also responsible and complicit for Nazi atrocities? A new law would make saying that illegal.

 

JERUSALEM/WARSAW (Reuters) - Israel's prime minister and Holocaust survivors on Sunday bridled at a draft Polish law that would make it illegal to suggest Poland bore any responsibility for Nazi atrocities committed on its soil.

 

The Israeli foreign ministry summoned Poland's charge d'affaires - the ambassador was abroad – to object to the bill, which is still going through parliament.

 

"We will under no circumstances accept any attempt to rewrite history," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in lengthy public remarks to his cabinet.

 

Netanyahu and Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki talked by phone late on Sunday, the Israeli leader's office said, and they "had agreed to open immediate dialogue between teams from both countries to try to reach understandings on the legislation."

 

Before World War Two, Poland was home to Europe's largest Jewish community of some 3.2 million. Nazi Germany attacked and occupied Poland in 1939 and later built death camps including Auschwitz and Treblinka on Polish soil. Most of the Jews that lived in Poland were killed by the Nazi occupiers.

 

The Polish government said in a statement the legislation aimed to stop the Polish people or state being blamed for Nazi crimes

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-poland-clash-over-proposed-holocaust-law-165356819.html

Makes me think about that saying:"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

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Not like the Jews of course; what they suffered by the nazis is unique in world history but Poland suffered under the nazi occupation too. The death camps were nazi death camps not Polish death camps; the latter implies somehow that Poland and Polish people were responsible for the Holocaust. I say nazi because not all Germans are guilty of the horror that the nazis caused.

 

The nazis considered the Poles like all Slavs to be sub-human.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Government

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" ["Animal Farm"]

 

" ... my library was dukedom large enough" [Prospero - "The Tempest" Act 1, Scene 2]

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Before the establishment of the modern State of Israel, many were advocating instead for carving out a Jewish state in Europe. I suspect that would have generated at least as much resistance and violence as what has happened in the Middle East.

 

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/jewish-state-in-europe.323058/

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Before the establishment of the modern State of Israel, many were advocating instead for carving out a Jewish state in Europe. I suspect that would have generated at least as much resistance and violence as what has happened in the Middle East.

 

Sometimes when we go all whoop-ass on the Palestinians, I wonder what things would be like if we had offered New Jersey instead. http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

 

500px-New_Jersey_in_United_States.svg.png

'If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also to deny under oath that I ever made it.' - Tom Lehrer

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Sometimes when we go all whoop-ass on the Palestinians, I wonder what things would be like if we had offered New Jersey instead. http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

 

500px-New_Jersey_in_United_States.svg.png

 

Let’s not forget Kansas:

 

https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/jewish-farming-communities/12101

 

I think Jewish agricultural communities were started in other states, too. There is a book coming out next year about these Kansas Jewish communities.

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I'm not sure it's accurate to say Poland was complicit with the Nazis, but it's certainly true that anti-Semitism was tolerated, even encouraged. This appears to be an effort to whitewash that fact.

 

It might be more accurate to say that some Polish individuals were complicit with the Nazis in wiping out the Jewish population. Eastern Poland (today part of the Ukraine) furnished many of the concentration camp guards. Polish partisans in the woods often killed Jews they found hiding there. After the Jews were “relocated” many Polish neighbors had no trouble taking Jewish property with little thought about the original owners.

 

By the same token, other Poles hid and protected Jewish friends and neighbors. I knew a Jewish couple who survived the war hiding beneath a barn floor in a hole about six feet deep; the farm family fed them and hid them for about three years as I recall the story. There were many such cases.

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Part of the, I hate to use the word problem, was that Poland is an extremely Roman Catholic country and the hierarchy of the Catholic church was extremely anti-Semitic. While individual priests, nuns, and lay people aided Jews throughout Poland the failure not too fed right into Roman Catholic teaching.

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At one time there was talk of establishing a Jewish homeland in Uganda or Madagascar.

 

Stalin established a Jewish area in the USSR

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" ["Animal Farm"]

 

" ... my library was dukedom large enough" [Prospero - "The Tempest" Act 1, Scene 2]

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However, didn't Russia have a long history of anti-Semitic behavior (pogroms)?

 

Absolutely! Both under the Tsars (see the movie "Fiddler on the Roof") and the Communists. Stalin had plans for a great Jewish persecution; only his death stopped it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" ["Animal Farm"]

 

" ... my library was dukedom large enough" [Prospero - "The Tempest" Act 1, Scene 2]

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Sadly, according to this Anti-Defamation League report, Poland is Europe's second most antisemitic country, with 45% of its citizens holding such views. Only Greece is worse, at 69%.

 

Before World War II, Poland was home to a Jewish population of 3 - 4 million, the largest anywhere in the world at that time. Today, Poland's Jewish population is down a hundredfold, and many of these are non-observant.

 

I've never been to Poland so I don't know whether antisemitism is a problem in everyday life, or something the government gets excited about, or some combination of the two.

 

It would be simplistic to think that all Poles turned on their Jewish neighbors during the Nazi occupation, just as it would be naive to think that all Poles came to their defense. Whatever the truth, I can understand the government, and most likely the Poles themselves, wanting to identify with a history of being welcoming to their Jewish citizens rather than thinking of themselves as enablers of their destruction under the Nazis. But it doesn't seem that enacting a law prohibiting speech is the best way to go about achieving that goal.

 

Of course, antisemitism is just one facet of anti-everybody-not-like-me and it's a problem facing most humans today. I doubt that problem can be legislated away. I think if it's ever going to be solved it will be by turning our full attention to the ways in which we are alike.

 

And that's a problem we've been working on for a few hundred thousand years, with varying degrees of success. But the hope that I see is that, for the first time in human history, we are entering an era where it will be possible for every human in the world to reach out directly to every other human in the world and perhaps make a personal connection.

 

While we're waiting, it seems like another good idea would be to resist with all our might those who want us to look for enemies instead.

 

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to sign a revised executive order Monday barring citizens of

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I wonder if the practicing of religion (of any kind) fell when Russia basically controlled the countries, i.e., the eastern European countries were controlled by the Communist parties? If this were the case, it would not be surprising that the practice of Judaism (as well as other religions) would have fallen. However, I think that the Catholic religion (at least in Poland) stayed fairly strong and actually precipitated the fall of Communism. Obviously, to our consternation, Russia is still around.

Edited by TruthBTold

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  • 3 weeks later...

WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Matylda Jonas-Kowalik has spent most of her 22 years secure in the belief that she would never know the discrimination, persecution or violence that killed or traumatized generations of Polish Jews before her. She once thought the biggest problem that young Jewish Poles like herself faced was finding a Jewish boyfriend or girlfriend in a country dominated by Catholics.

 

But an eruption of anti-Semitic comments in public debates amid a diplomatic dispute with Israel over a new Holocaust speech law has caused to her to rethink that certainty. Now she and others fear the hostile rhetoric could eventually trigger anti-Semitic violence, and she finds herself thinking constantly about whether she should leave Poland.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/polish-jews-stunned-scared-eruption-anti-semitism-125719594.html

Liberal, born and raised in Maryland, proud member of pink pistols!

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I haven't given a lot of thought to Holocaust deniers other than considering them a little bit nutz. They've been at it for decades though, in the face of ........reality. I mean there are probably members of this board that believe the holocaust is part of fake news.

 

There was a little, gay Jewish fellow out here that was brutally murdered by a neo Nazi recently. That's real, right people? Or should we wait for input from a Russian bot? No, it happened. The friends and family, and his memorial were on our TV news. That's not fake.

 

The Poland story makes me wonder why this kind of denial has been going on for so long, and why.

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From what I have read over the years the majority of European countries (and other countries as well) have had anti-Semitic elements in them. At points in history circumstances arise which allow those elements to break out and wreak havoc on the Jewish community. This happened in many of the countries in Europe during WWII. I am not sure whether they have accepted responsibility for their participation in Hitler's imposition of the Holocaust (of course, there were also a certain amount of the population that tried to shield the Jewish population as best it could). I am not sure why the Polish population will not accept its participation while also noting that it was a large victim of German oppression. One can be both.

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  • 2 months later...

Officials at the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial and museum have described how they were subjected to a wave of “hate, fake news and manipulations” as a result of the controversy surrounding a contentious Holocaust speech law passed by Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party earlier this year.

 

The campaign of disinformation and abuse at the hands of Polish nationalists has raised concerns about pressure being exerted on official guides at the site in southern Poland, after the home of one foreign guide was attacked and supporters of a convicted antisemite filmed themselves repeatedly hectoring their guide during a visit to the camp in March.

 

Conceived in part as a means to prevent facilities established by Poland’s German occupiers from being described as “Polish death camps”, the legislation, which criminalises the false attribution to the Polish state or nation of complicity in the crimes committed by Nazi Germany during the Holocaust, prompted a furious reaction in Israel and elsewhere amid concerns it could be used to restrict open discussion of Poland’s wartime history.

 

This in turn provoked an angry backlash from nationalist and pro-government media in Poland, many of whom accused the museum – which administers the site, conducts historical research, and trains and licenses official guides – of deliberately downplaying the fate of the approximately 74,000 non-Jewish Polish prisoners who perished in the camp, by focusing exclusively on its Jewish victims.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/07/polands-holocaust-law-triggers-tide-abuse-auschwitz-museum

Liberal, born and raised in Maryland, proud member of pink pistols!

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  • 1 month later...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

 

From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in 1025 through to the early years of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe. Known as paradisus judaeorum(Latin for "Paradise of the Jews"), it became a shelter for persecuted and expelled European Jewish communities and the home to the world's largest Jewish community of the time. According to some sources, about three-quarters of the world's Jews lived in Poland by the middle of the 16th century. With the weakening of the Commonwealth and growing religious strife (due to the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Counter-Reformation), Poland's traditional tolerance began to wane from the 17th century onward. After the Partitions of Poland in 1795 and the destruction of Poland as a sovereign state, Polish Jews were subject to the laws of the partitioning powers, the increasingly antisemitic Russian Empire, as well as Austria-Hungary and Kingdom of Prussia (later a part of the German Empire). Still, as Poland regained independence in the aftermath of World War I, it was the center of the European Jewish world with one of the world's largest Jewish communities of over 3 million. Antisemitism was a growing problem throughout Europe in those years, from both the political establishment and the general population.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" ["Animal Farm"]

 

" ... my library was dukedom large enough" [Prospero - "The Tempest" Act 1, Scene 2]

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