Kurtis Wolf & Draven Navarro Groped On Stage At Hustlaball Las Vegas 2018

[+ stevenkesslar]

From my perspective, it puts in question many of the opinions and the reviews we shared as clients. I have no interest on a professional's evaluation coming from some one who thinks it is OK to disrespect and assume consent. In a way, this thread is a revelation.

 

I agree with your sentiments almost completely. But this is the one part of what you said that I will challenge.

 

I am aware of the fact that there are things I can say that are true, in my view, but that will sound self-serving or pandering. So I have to qualify this by saying my last new review was in 2011 (#93) and the only clients who I am paid by these days are a handful I have known for over a decade, who are actually more friends than clients. So I think I can say this without sounding like I am just sucking up or grubbing for clients.

 

What I actually most appreciate about what Kurtis wrote is that he is perfectly willing to say, in translation, "Get a clue, guys. I want to be treated with the respect I deserve."

 

In the more than 10 years I was an active escort, this website was a godsend. It was the only place I advertised - even though it's actually free - and it more or less guaranteed that I was treated with the respect I deserve. Not only did I make a lot of money, which was the point. I did it doing something I genuinely enjoyed, and I made a bunch of friends in the process - both other escorts, and clients.

 

There were a handful of assholes who hired me off this site. But if there were a statistical analysis or chart available, I'm pretty sure the number of assholes I encountered would be no more - and probably fewer - assholes than the typical lawyer, doctor, or other professional runs into in the course of doing their business. This is as good as it gets. Not only for this weird form of doing business, but I suspect for many forms of doing business that "normal" Straight people don't bat an eyelash at.

 

I've told Daddy that I will be eternally grateful to him, and Hooboy - may he rest in peace - for single-handedly making my career possible, and for creating a website that allowed me to develop relationships with so many good people.

 

None of this is meant to take away from anything Kurtis said, or to undercut the fact that he was treated with disrespect by a jerk in a bar. I have almost no experience as a stripper - I tried it once at the Campus in SF before it closed, and was friends and workout buddies with a few strippers from the Nob Hill. It does not surprise me in the least that regularly dealing with drunk or high or obnoxious assholes goes with the territory.

 

And this is not just a problem for strippers in bars. We've certainly heard a lot about this lately from women being groped involuntarily, or raped. But even when you go to the dynamics of sex in bath houses, which is presumably grounded in consent - nobody is forced to enter a Gay bathhouse - people can be incredibly mean, obnoxious, and disrespectful. Again, I think it goes with the territory. When you are drunk or tweeking, even more so.

 

I was incredibly defensive about sticking up for Jeffrey and Rentboy, even though I only advertised on Rentboy once, a decade ago, for a total of one week. And the two clients who hired me off my Rentboy ad, for a total of I think $400, were total disasters. One was off in space on cocaine during our hour together, and the other one was just clueless about how to communicate anything about what he was interested in doing. My point is that based on my experience, there is something about a review website with a forum that fosters debate like this that encourages informed, mature, and respectful people. And whether Rentboy or any other website is perfect or not, it is very important to have spaces that allow people like us to do what we enjoy doing safely, and respectfully.

 

Again, none of this is meant to undercut what Kurtis is saying, because I completely agree with him. While I used a tone of sarcasm and humor in an earlier post on this thread, I actually am not really sure why so many hot guys choose to be strippers in bars, as opposed to escorts. I assume a big part of the answer is that they are Straight, and not really interested in the job requirements of a typical escort. And I'm also sure that for a stripper, it's fun to be an exhibitionist. That's certainly how my stripper buddies felt. But the venue does encourage drunk, high, and obnoxious assholes who didn't really finish out the semester on Respect 101. So my heart goes out to studs like Kurtis who are willing to put up with it. And my heart also goes out to the many really good members of this website who make it worth being a part of.

[+ José Soplanucas]

I agree with your sentiments almost completely. But this is the one part of what you said that I will challenge.

 

I am aware of the fact that there are things I can say that are true, in my view, but that will sound self-serving or pandering. So I have to qualify this by saying my last new review was in 2011 (#93) and the only clients who I am paid by these days are a handful I have known for over a decade, who are actually more friends than clients. So I think I can say this without sounding like I am just sucking up or grubbing for clients.

 

What I actually most appreciate about what Kurtis wrote is that he is perfectly willing to say, in translation, "Get a clue, guys. I want to be treated with the respect I deserve."

 

In the more than 10 years I was an active escort, this website was a godsend. It was the only place I advertised - even though it's actually free - and it more or less guaranteed that I was treated with the respect I deserve. Not only did I make a lot of money, which was the point. I did it doing something I genuinely enjoyed, and I made a bunch of friends in the process - both other escorts, and clients.

 

There were a handful of assholes who hired me off this site. But if there were a statistical analysis or chart available, I'm pretty sure the number of assholes I encountered would be no more - and probably fewer - assholes than the typical lawyer, doctor, or other professional runs into in the course of doing their business. This is as good as it gets. Not only for this weird form of doing business, but I suspect for many forms of doing business that "normal" Straight people don't bat an eyelash at.

 

I've told Daddy that I will be eternally grateful to him, and Hooboy - may he rest in peace - for single-handedly making my career possible, and for creating a website that allowed me to develop relationships with so many good people.

 

None of this is meant to take away from anything Kurtis said, or to undercut the fact that he was treated with disrespect by a jerk in a bar. I have almost no experience as a stripper - I tried it once at the Campus in SF before it closed, and was friends and workout buddies with a few strippers from the Nob Hill. It does not surprise me in the least that regularly dealing with drunk or high or obnoxious assholes goes with the territory.

 

And this is not just a problem for strippers in bars. We've certainly heard a lot about this lately from women being groped involuntarily, or raped. But even when you go to the dynamics of sex in bath houses, which is presumably grounded in consent - nobody is forced to enter a Gay bathhouse - people can be incredibly mean, obnoxious, and disrespectful. Again, I think it goes with the territory. When you are drunk or tweeking, even more so.

 

I was incredibly defensive about sticking up for Jeffrey and Rentboy, even though I only advertised on Rentboy once, a decade ago, for a total of one week. And the two clients who hired me off my Rentboy ad, for a total of I think $400, were total disasters. One was off in space on cocaine during our hour together, and the other one was just clueless about how to communicate anything about what he was interested in doing. My point is that based on my experience, there is something about a review website with a forum that fosters debate like this that encourages informed, mature, and respectful people. And whether Rentboy or any other website is perfect or not, it is very important to have spaces that allow people like us to do what we enjoy doing safely, and respectfully.

 

Again, none of this is meant to undercut what Kurtis is saying, because I completely agree with him. While I used a tone of sarcasm and humor in an earlier post on this thread, I actually am not really sure why so many hot guys choose to be strippers in bars, as opposed to escorts. I assume a big part of the answer is that they are Straight, and not really interested in the job requirements of a typical escort. And I'm also sure that for a stripper, it's fun to be an exhibitionist. That's certainly how my stripper buddies felt. But the venue does encourage drunk, high, and obnoxious assholes who didn't really finish out the semester on Respect 101. So my heart goes out to studs like Kurtis who are willing to put up with it. And my heart also goes out to the many really good members of this website who make it worth being a part of.

 

So where do you disagree with me. If you took from my post that I am disqualifying everyone's opinions and reviews, that is not what I meant. Maybe my bad English confused you? Maybe your low reading skills? (because we do know you can write)

 

I did not mean to disqualify most of the members but the group who seems to think that they can grab whatever they want to. If that is their attitude with a stripper or a logo boy, I think we can legitimately infer that when talking about an escort they may think that because they are paying they have all the power. What I meant to say is that every time I see a negative review or criticism against a professional, I will carefully research the reviewer's previous posts to evaluate whether or not his experience has any value.

[TruthBTold]

I am not sure how the situation transpired that evening or whether the strippers are actual employees of the establishments (actually it should not matter) but the bar, club, etc., certainly has an obligation to announce that certain behavior regarding touching the dancers is allowed or prohibited. It should also provide personnel to enforce that announcement. There is not much that the dancers can do once they start providing the entertainment. However, the dancers should understand that none of those actions will be allowed with or without consent (so no extra moolah).

 

Exactly. There's absolutely nothing to see here.

At least nothing that isn't very tedious. Just move along.

Just added this to say that I can understand why the jerk tried what he did. Mesmerizing.

[+ stevenkesslar]

So where do you disagree with me. If you took from my post that I am disqualifying everyone's opinions and reviews, that is not what I meant. Maybe my bad English confused you? Maybe your low reading skills? (because we do know you can write)

 

I did not mean to disqualify most of the members but the group who seems to think that they can grab whatever they want to. If that is their attitude with a stripper or a gogo boy, I think we can legitimately infer that when talking about an escort they may think that because they are paying they have all the power. What I meant to say is that every time I see a negative review or criticism against a professional, I will carefully research the reviewer's previous posts to evaluate whether or not his experience has any value.

 

As performers, we are constantly having to put up with people violating our personal space, disrespecting us and assaulting us, treating us nothing more than just a slab of meat. We've become so numb to that fact that it becomes a breathe a fresh air and a huge turn on when we treat each other with respect and see each other as an actual person caring for one another.

 

Are you fucking kidding me?!? This is what happens when you're up on stage, doing a sex show and you're close enough to the audience. Some drunk, horny homo is gonna touch, grab or even try and suck your dick. I've been there, seen it and had it happen to me. It's not assault, and it just seems like someone wants to play the victim card. You didn't get Weinsteine'd or Cosby'd so stop equating it to assault and delegitimizing actual assault.

 

If there is any space between us, Latbear4blk, it is very small and subtle. (No pun intended. I do expect you to keep your hands off me). In response to what you wrote, which I overwhelmingly agree with, I felt like it was a good place to come in with a more serious tone about the fact that this website and the reviews and comments on it are generally about as good as it gets in making distinctions, dealing with nuances, and in general treating people with respect.

 

The reviews generally speak for themselves. It's not rare for an asshole to post a bad review. When they come off as an asshole with an ax to grind, and the escort responds reasonably and gracefully, it actually ends up just earning more respect for the escort. While this thread was not about a bad review, it is about an asshole in a bar. Kurtis actually just demonstrated how you earn respect by responding with candor, grace, wit, and common sense.

 

I posted the core arguments of Kurtis and Lance above for a reason. First, they are two of the most respected and classiest professionals around, with well deserved excellent reputations. Second, you could read what they both say as disagreement. Lance seems to be dismissive of the idea that this is "assault." Kurtis writes as if very few of you assholes gives any of us the respect we deserve, which is why we have to get what we need from each other.

 

I strongly agree with both writers and both tones, based on a few decades of personal experience, as well as a lot of friendships along with the way with escorts, strippers, porn stars, and other "performers." Part of the reason I think they are both right is they are giving nuanced perspectives. I suspect describing very different types of experiences. To simplify it, my guess is a lot of this comes down to whether you are an "escort" or a "stripper." And I use "stripper" as opposed to "performer" because - as Kurtis points out - that involves nuances, too. Maninsoma is right that when you go into a "stripper" bar, especially in a place like Puerto Vallarta, there is a basic expectation that strippers are going to strip, reveal their cocks, and you are likely to have the opportunity to touch them in a very erotic way. I spent about 20 minutes one time with a stripper in Wet teasing his engorged and throbbing cock to the edge of orgasm, and playing with his precum. Maybe he enjoyed it, or maybe he just enjoyed the money I kept putting in his g string. Either way, he didn't seem like he wanted me to stop.

 

I actually have a lot more I could say, because this thread made me reflect on my own experiences and the experiences of close friends of mine who were escorts or strippers at places like the Nob Hill Theater. But I know I'm dominating the thread already. So before I continue, I'd be interested to see if Kurtis - or any other escort - wants to weigh in on the differences between being an "escort" and being a "performer." My guess is they are very different experiences. Kurtis already alluded to the fact that patrons on cruises are more respectful than patrons at Charlies. Part of my point is that, to summarize several decades of experience, I think escorts are much more likely to get the respect they deserve than strippers are.

 

And part of the reason why is that if you don't like to be sexually objectified, you might not want to present yourself to the public as a sex object. I'm pretty sure that most strippers like what they see when they look in a mirror, whether they are working out in a gym wearing more clothes, or stripping in a bar wearing little or no clothes. That doesn't give you the right to grab their cock - while they are working out, while they are changing in the locker room, or even when they are stripping in a bar. But the idea that they don't choose to make a living as a sex object, or that they don't enjoy it, is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the strippers who are most successful seem to be the ones who make you feel like they actually enjoy it - whether they actually do or not. So it is nuanced, and complicated.

Edited January 17, 2018 by stevenkesslar

[Bearofdistinction]

I would NEVER do that, But if you happened to back into me because I was down on my knees searching for my purse, I cant be held accountable. Me groping for your 3 inch cock would just be so Tacky ! What kind of

Lady do you think i am ?

 

Years ago there was a dancer in Philly who loved to be finger fucked while he danced - One night I thought he was gonna pull the whole hand in with those muscles!

Edited January 18, 2018 by Bearofdistinction

[+ José Soplanucas]

If there is any space between us, Latbear4blk, it is very small and subtle. (No pun intended. I do expect you to keep your hands off me). In response to what you wrote, which I overwhelmingly agree with, I felt like it was a good place to come in with a more serious tone about the fact that this website and the reviews and comments on it are generally about as good as it gets in making distinctions, dealing with nuances, and in general treating people with respect.

 

The reviews generally speak for themselves. It's not rare for an asshole to post a bad review. When they come off as an asshole with an ax to grind, and the escort responds reasonably and gracefully, it actually ends up just earning more respect for the escort. While this thread was not about a bad review, it is about an asshole in a bar. Kurtis actually just demonstrated how you earn respect by responding with candor, grace, wit, and common sense.

 

I posted the core arguments of Kurtis and Lance above for a reason. First, they are two of the most respected and classiest professionals around, with well deserved excellent reputations. Second, you could read what they both say as disagreement. Lance seems to be dismissive of the idea that this is "assault." Kurtis writes as if very few of you assholes gives any of us the respect we deserve, which is why we have to get what we need from each other.

 

I strongly agree with both writers and both tones, based on a few decades of personal experience, as well as a lot of friendships along with the way with escorts, strippers, porn stars, and other "performers." Part of the reason I think they are both right is they are giving nuanced perspectives. I suspect describing very different types of experiences. To simplify it, my guess is a lot of this comes down to whether you are an "escort" or a "stripper." And I use "stripper" as opposed to "performer" because - as Kurtis points out - that involves nuances, too. Maninsoma is right that when you go into a "stripper" bar, especially in a place like Puerto Vallarta, there is a basic expectation that strippers are going to strip, reveal their cocks, and you are likely to have the opportunity to touch them in a very erotic way. I spent about 20 minutes one time with a stripper in Wet teasing his engorged and throbbing cock to the edge of orgasm, and playing with his precum. Maybe he enjoyed it, or maybe he just enjoyed the money I kept putting in his g string. Either way, he didn't seem like he wanted me to stop.

 

I actually have a lot more I could say, because this thread made me reflect on my own experiences and the experiences of close friends of mine who were escorts or strippers at places like the Nob Hill Theater. But I know I'm dominating the thread already. So before I continue, I'd be interested to see if Kurtis - or any other escort - wants to weigh in on the differences between being an "escort" and being a "performer." My guess is they are very different experiences. Kurtis already alluded to the fact that patrons on cruises are more respectful than patrons at Charlies. Part of my point is that, to summarize several decades of experience, I think escorts are much more likely to get the respect they deserve than strippers are.

 

And part of the reason why is that if you don't like to be sexually objectified, you might not want to present yourself to the public as a sex object. I'm pretty sure that most strippers like what they see when they look in a mirror, whether they are working out in a gym wearing more clothes, or stripping in a bar wearing little or no clothes. That doesn't give you the right to grab their cock - while they are working out, while they are changing in the locker room, or even when they are stripping in a bar. But the idea that they don't choose to make a living as a sex object, or that they don't enjoy it, is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the strippers who are most successful seem to be the ones who make you feel like they actually enjoy it - whether they actually do or not. So it is nuanced, and complicated.

 

What I like of this place is that now and then actual dialogue and reflexion take place, despite some bitchiness that puts some flavor in the dish. Before continuing, let me confess I am disappointed you want me to keep my hands off you. I had the fantasy of playing with your legendary micro penis in Palm Spring, but I guess it is not going to happen.

 

I had not perceived that nuance you are pointing out to in @Kurtis Wolfe 's post. I see it now and I cannot disagree more if that is what he means. I do have a "we" and "them" in my own outlook, but it is not "we the clients/fans/audience" and "them the escorts/Pstars/performers". I am aware of the diversity of both "sides" and make no generalizations about any. My "we" has to do with personal interests and core values, and I enroll both clients and providers in my side. Perhaps Kurtis misspoke out of frustration, still hot because of the recent incident. Perhaps he does think that we are all assholes unable to look at him as he deserves. I hope is misspeaking.

 

About the difference between the respect escorts and strippers receive, I do not really care about that. You are bringing your American love for data and polls we know very well from the Politics forum. That is fine but not my thing. I am more concerned about the issue of mutual respect and explicit consent.

 

Yes, of course there is an expectation when you walk into a strippers club that you are going to touch as much as you can. Kurtis mentions legal constrains but to be honest, I do not give a fuck about regulations. Whether or not it is legal, when I am in the cub I am going to try to grab, touch, kiss, and finger. I would add fuck to the list, but so far I have never done that, so let's keep the first list. I would try to do all of these things and I have done it even breaking the rules. When I was younger, and hornier, and less experienced, and more ignorant of the world, the others, and myself, and more selfish and self-centered, I was abusive many times. I am not an alfa male, but sexually I am assertive and dominant. I abused many times non-for-fee hook ups and professionals, no difference there. I did it and I regret it. I do not brag about and do not advocate for it. I am ashamed.

 

However, I have grown and learned. When I go to the club now, I still expect all the same things I did before. The difference is now I never do it without the performer explicit consent. My issue with abuse is not that it is illegal, but that it is just wrong. There is no difference in how I treat a professional or a non fee hook up, I want both of us to have an enjoyable experience. I would never abuse a hook up, and the same is applicable to a hire.

 

Do I have attitudes that may lead me to be abusive? Hell yes. I am still horny as hell and many times driven by my dick, I am still assertive and dominant, and an assumed control freak. I know myself now and therefore know that I have to be extra careful. The key change, I think, is that I overcame my self-centerness and now I understand it is not about me-me-me.

 

I still need to improve on some things. For instance, many times I have been confronted for jokes making analogies between providers and "meat". I will try to stop doing that, it feds an ideology of objectifying and abuse that our sisters are right now fighting with. I mean they are now successfully fighting, they have been fighting without much success, perhaps I'd rather say suffering for a very long time.

 

I will also try to be a better advocate for the providers' rights and respect. This forum is strongly biased towards clients, despite commendable efforts by @Guy Fawkes to protect them from abuse and libeling. Several times I have been confronted by other forum members for trying to stop the bad mouthing about a fellow escort. Sorry guys, but from now on not only I will confront you when you do not follow the procedure established to protect the providers' rights, I will also report you.

Edited January 18, 2018 by latbear4blk

[+ José Soplanucas]

Fuck that was a too long post. I think @stevenkesslar verbal diarrhea is contagious.

[Guy Fawkes]

I once was a frequenter of "Sin City Books" in Portland, the details of which are not important....

 

One day I took a straight friend of mine to sample the various video delights to found there. After a while, he came out and asked what to do about a rather aggressive, persistent type that we lovingly had labeled: "Hungry Hanna"

 

I said: "Tell him your not interested."

He replied: "Did that!"

I said: "Tell him to get the hell out of your booth!"

He replied: "Did that!"

I said: "Knock him on his ass."

A while later, we hear this rather loud crack, and when we went back to the back we found the six foot or so of "Hungry Hanna" laid out in the center aisle. Hungry Hanna was done for the night and was asked to leave the premises.

 

I don't agree with this #MeToo Political Bullshit.

 

I watched Kurtis's response and felt he did an excellent first pass at setting his limits. Given who he had up and hanging on his waist, he was far kinder than I would have been.

My Question is: "Where was the bouncer, and why wasn't he doing his job?"

 

I will not speak to the Draven interaction other than point out that he's my type of man:

1. Short
   
2. Muscular
   
3. Latino
   

You don't do anything to this man that he doesn't want you do. Period. End of Statement.

I just want to know if "Blueberry Hill" is acceptable for dinner?

 

I will also try to be a better advocate for the providers' rights and respect. This forum is strongly biased towards clients, despite commendable efforts by @Guy Fawkes to protect them from abuse and libeling. Several times I have been confronted by other forum members for trying to stop the bad mouthing about a fellow escort. Sorry guys, but from now on not only I will confront you when you do not follow the procedure established to protect the providers' rights, I will also report you.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guy Fawkes

[+ Lance_Navarro]

Clearly that is not what I wrote and y'all need to stop reading more into what I wrote than what is actually written there. If you're still reading it that way, then I'll reword it so its easier to understand but don't even try twisting my statement into something that it is not.

 

I will also repeat that the shower shows done on Friday evening WERE NOT SEX SHOWS. AGAIN WERE NOT. NOT. NOT. NOT. Thus, that would make Lance's statement null & void since his statement relates only to SEX SHOWS.

 

I seriously can't believe we're having a discussion about proper etiquette in a gay bar when it comes to dancers and there doesn't seem to be a full consensus that what happened on Friday night was not acceptable behavior.

 

I will acknowledge that I was under the perception that this took place at the actually Hustleball event, so knowing that it wasn't a sex show does change my perspective a bit, in terms of the fact that both you and the bar could have gotten trouble for your dick being exposed. I still, however have a hard to equating the incident on stage to an assault.

 

I believe the situation you described back-stage, in which the guy tried the penetrate you, not once, but twice, is certainly closer to sexual assault. Again though, these are just my feelings.

 

I've been dancing on a box and had my dick grabbed and even pulled out multiple times, it cause for someone being reprimanded, and if repeated, thrown out of a club, but I wouldn't push it further.

[+ stevenkesslar]

As performers, we are constantly having to put up with people violating our personal space, disrespecting us and assaulting us, treating us nothing more than just a slab of meat. We've become so numb to that fact that it becomes a breathe a fresh air and a huge turn on when we treat each other with respect and see each other as an actual person caring for one another.

 

Clearly that is not what I wrote and y'all need to stop reading more into what I wrote than what is actually written there. If you're still reading it that way, then I'll reword it so its easier to understand but don't even try twisting my statement into something that it is not...I seriously can't believe we're having a discussion about proper etiquette in a gay bar when it comes to dancers and there doesn't seem to be a full consensus that what happened on Friday night was not acceptable behavior..

 

You are correct that I did not use your words. I was in part playing off the comments I made and the words I used earlier in this thread, before you weighed in. So I'm sorry if I twisted your words. For example, you did not use the word "assholes." Probably the best thing is to simply let your words speak for themselves - which they do, quite effectively. You do seem to be saying that it is a widespread experience to be violated, disrespected, assaulted, and treated like a slab of meat - your words, not mine.

 

No part of anything I have said was meant to disagree with either your arguments, or your feelings. I strongly agree with your arguments. In my own words, both guys that did things you described in detail were assholes. Again, "asshole" is my word, not yours. So I'm actually not sure there is any disagreement here that they were engaging in unacceptable behavior, at least not between you and me. If there is disagreement, I think it's based on what you mentioned in your first post - an inaccurate understanding of context, and the rules that apply. There is a difference between touching the cock of a stripper in a bar in Mexico where it is not only legal, but encouraged by some of the strippers, who seem to see it as a way to make money, and touching your cock in a bar in the United States, during a very different type of performance, where doing that actually puts both you and the bar at legal risk. So your distinction about this not being a sex show is completely clear.

 

I am not trying to set up disagreement between you, Lance, me, or anyone. This touched a nerve with me, as it appears to have done with you. I saw it as an opportunity for reflection and dialogue - exactly what LatBear4Blk is up to. Funny how you can't engage in deep reflection and dialogue in Trump-sized tweets, isn't it?

 

I still think Lance's point is excellent, and is mostly consistent with your points. In your own words, performers constantly have to put up with patrons violating their personal spaces, including what you called "assault." I think it is quite fair to use the word "assault" to describe someone grabbing someone's cock in violation of the bar's rules, the law, and common courtesy. My interpretation of what Lance was saying, which is close to his actual words, is that performers have to be kidding themselves if they don't expect this kind of behavior. I think that's actually very consistent with what you are saying - which is that this kind of bad behavior happens constantly.

 

If there is a disagreement here, it is over what constitutes, to use Lance's exact words, "delegitimizing actual assault." Again, my reason for quoting you and Lance on this point, and adding my monologue, was not to foster disagreement. It was to foster dialogue and reflection. Because, again, I think you are actually both right, and that is the dialogue that gets to the heart of the matter. LatBear4Blk gets it, because everything he just posted is a candid and beautiful reflection on the intricacies of this topic, I think.

 

Now that I have done a good job of writing like a lawyer and pedant, let me step back and say this. One of the reasons I really enjoy going on and on in the politics forum is that I can treat myself with the respect I deserve. I never really felt like clients were paying me thousands of dollars to go on expensive trips to hear me pontificate about Bill Clinton - even though I did. This is even more true when it's about one hour of interaction with an escort that often amounts to erotic fantasy fulfillment. I suspect that's even more true when it boils down to one minute of groping some part of a stripper's body.

 

Most patrons in a bar are probably not focused on nuances about whether its a "sex show" or something else, let alone what the performers think about Bernie Sanders' views on health care policy. As LatBear4Blk candidly admitted, it often is about guys who are horny as hell and driven by their dick. So for me, it feels like a privilege to just go on and on about what my mind is saying, not what my dick is saying, and not have to particularly give a shit what anybody thinks. That's me giving myself the respect I deserve. And when I am in that mode, LatBear4Blk is exactly right. My first weapons of choice are often data and charts and graphs and intellect.

 

When I am in escort mode, I actually considered one of my best weapons of choice to be my intuition. If I may be permitted a moment of Astrobabble, my birth sign is Virgo, and my rising sign is Pisces. Translated into non-babble, what that means is what you see is logic and intellect, but what runs underneath is intuition and feeling. I always considered that part of me my "secret weapon." I bring it up in this context because as Latbear4blk expresses very nicely, a lot of this comes down to feeling, intuition, subjective perception, and being able to make someone feel like you respect him - not like he is a piece of meat. That has less to do with rules, although they matter, and more to do with intuition and empathy.

 

That's the part of this discussion that is particularly interesting to me, and why I've chimed in. To again uses Lance's exact words, the reasons why Lance and Kurtis are both right is that while it may not legally or technically be "legitimate assault," it sure as fuck feels like assault when it is happening to you. Not coincidentally, a version of this is exactly what many younger women are saying right now about Aziz Ansari: while it may not technically be assault, it sure feels like it is sexist, offensive, and disrespectful. They are not wrong.

 

If I sum up 20 years of my life and a lot of close relationships with other escorts, porn stars, strippers, and erotic performers, a common theme in what a lot of us are looking for is respect, as well as integration and personal growth. And the way to find it has less to do with rules and logic, and more to do with intuition and feeling and empathy.

 

Intuition and feeling and empathy is not necessarily what guys think they need when they hire an escort, let alone go to a stripper bar, a sex show, or an erotic performance. Probably they think their cock and a wad of cash is sufficient. And that is what appears to cause problems. The challenge actually is not different than the one Aziz Ansari just ran up against. It's about whether you "misread" verbal and non-verbal cues. Which is to say, are you able to be empathetic and intuitive about what is going on with the person who you are interested in - whether they are an escort or a performer or a date?

 

I think that is the prize to be won by reflection and dialogue on this topic.

Edited January 18, 2018 by stevenkesslar

[jjkrkwood]

You are correct that I did not use your words. I was in part playing off the comments I made and the words I used earlier in this thread, before you weighed in. So I'm sorry if I twisted your words. For example, you did not use the word "assholes." Probably the best thing is to simply let your words speak for themselves - which they do, quite effectively. You do seem to be saying that it is a widespread experience to be violated, disrespected, assaulted, and treated like a slab of meat - your words, not mine.

 

No part of anything I have said was meant to disagree with either your arguments, or your feelings. I strongly agree with your arguments. In my own words, both guys that did things you described in detail were assholes. Again, "asshole" is my word, not yours. So I'm actually not sure there is any disagreement here that they were engaging in unacceptable behavior, at least not between you and me. If there is disagreement, I think it's based on what you mentioned in your first post - an inaccurate understanding of context, and the rules that apply. There is a difference between touching the cock of a stripper in a bar in Mexico where it is not only legal, but encouraged by some of the strippers, who seem to see it as a way to make money, and touching your cock in a bar in the United States, during a very different type of performance, where doing that actually puts both you and the bar at legal risk. So your distinction about this not being a sex show is completely clear.

 

I am not trying to set up disagreement between you, Lance, me, or anyone. This touched a nerve with me, as it appears to have done with you. I saw it as an opportunity for reflection and dialogue - exactly what LatBear4Blk is up to. Funny how you can't engage in deep reflection and dialogue in Trump-sized tweets, isn't it?

 

I still think Lance's point is excellent, and is mostly consistent with your points. In your own words, performers constantly have to put up with patrons violating their personal spaces, including what you called "assault." I think it is quite fair to use the word "assault" to describe someone grabbing someone's cock in violation of the bar's rules, the law, and common courtesy. My interpretation of what Lance was saying, which is close to his actual words, is that performers have to be kidding themselves if they don't expect this kind of behavior. I think that's actually very consistent with what you are saying - which is that this kind of bad behavior happens constantly.

 

If there is a disagreement here, it is over what constitutes, to use Lance's exact words, "delegitimizing actual assault." Again, my reason for quoting you and Lance on this point, and adding my monologue, was not to foster disagreement. It was to foster dialogue and reflection. Because, again, I think you are actually both right, and that is the dialogue that gets to the heart of the matter. LatBear4Blk gets it, because everything he just posted is a candid and beautiful reflection on the intricacies of this topic, I think.

 

Now that I have done a good job of writing like a lawyer and pedant, let me step back and say this. One of the reasons I really enjoy going on and on in the politics forum is that I can treat myself with the respect I deserve. I never really felt like clients were paying me thousands of dollars to go on expensive trips to hear me pontificate about Bill Clinton - even though I did. This is even more true when it's about one hour of interaction with an escort that often amounts to erotic fantasy fulfillment. I suspect that's even more true when it boils down to one minute of groping some part of a stripper's body.

 

Most patrons in a bar are probably not focused on nuances about whether its a "sex show" or something else, let alone what the performers think about Bernie Sanders' views on health care policy. As LatBear4Blk candidly admitted, it often is about guys who are horny as hell and driven by their dick. So for me, it feels like a privilege to just go on and on about what my mind is saying, not what my dick is saying, and not have to particularly give a shit what anybody thinks. That's me giving myself the respect I deserve. And when I am in that mode, LatBear4Blk is exactly right. My first weapons of choice are often data and charts and graphs and intellect.

 

When I am in escort mode, I actually considered one of my best weapons of choice to be my intuition. If I may be permitted a moment of Astrobabble, my birth sign is Virgo, and my rising sign is Pisces. Translated into non-babble, what that means is what you see is logic and intellect, but what runs underneath is intuition and feeling. I always considered that part of me my "secret weapon." I bring it up in this context because as Latbear4blk expresses very nicely, a lot of this comes down to feeling, intuition, subjective perception, and being able to make someone feel like you respect him - not like he is a piece of meat. That has less to do with rules, although they matter, and more to do with intuition and empathy.

 

That's the part of this discussion that is particularly interesting to me, and why I've chimed in. To again uses Lance's exact words, the reasons why Lance and Kurtis are both right is that while it may not legally or technically be "legitimate assault," it sure as fuck feels like assault when it is happening to you. Not coincidentally, a version of this is exactly what many younger women are saying right now about Aziz Ansari: while it may not technically be assault, it sure feels like it is sexist, offensive, and disrespectful. They are not wrong.

 

If I sum up 20 years of my life and a lot of close relationships with other escorts, porn stars, strippers, and erotic performers, a common theme in what a lot of us are looking for is respect, as well as integration and personal growth. And the way to find it has less to do with rules and logic, and more to do with intuition and feeling and empathy.

 

Intuition and feeling and empathy is not necessarily what guys think they need when they hire an escort, let alone go to a stripper bar, a sex show, or an erotic performance. Probably they think their cock and a wad of cash is sufficient. And that is what appears to cause problems. The challenge actually is not different than the one Aziz Ansari just ran up against. It's about whether you "misread" verbal and non-verbal cues. Which is to say, are you able to be empathetic and intuitive about what is going on with the person who you are interested in - whether they are an escort or a performer or a date?

 

I think that is the prize to be won by reflection and dialogue on this topic.

 

 

OH GOD..... I need a "stiff one" after THAT !

 

[Walker1]

steven kesslar-perhaps you should do a Ph.D?

[jjkrkwood]

steven kesslar-perhaps you should do a Ph.D?

 

He's better at STD !

 

[Guy Fawkes]

He did one just last week at the urologist while being examined for the Mac Guiness book of world records

 

steven kesslar-perhaps you should do a Ph.D?