married men having sex with men

[Bilbo]

Marriage changes all the time. It is not static. (Sort of like the Constitution that way.) It has a living, breathing heart. That is my impression, and those who have read more history than I have assure me that I am correct.

The same could be said for fidelity. I have promised Maverick that I will always be honest with him, that I will always return to him, and he knows that I feel I am always ready to have at least as much sex with him as I have had with any one other person. The only condition on that honesty is that I won't tell him any more than he wishes to hear. A simple "TMI" will shut me up on that subject. And that, to me, is the definition of the sexual fidelity I have promised him. (There are many diferent kinds of fidelity, of course. These are only my understanding of our agreements on sex, per se.)

 

I do know that one thing that would trigger a TMI would be if I were to have sex with a woman. He wouldn't want to know any details on that since he feels he hasn't been bisexual since college.

 

I figure that some women would feel more threatened by extracurricular gay sex, thinking that they wouldn't be able to compete since they don't have dongs. But, then, I also know of women who would go on the warpath if their husbands had sex with another woman but would allow him to have all of the gay sex he wanted. I am not going to make geralizations about the entire fair sex.

 

And whilst you and I are relevant, we do tend to discourage discourse at times. I merely meant to say that since we agree that people have already heard from the two of us (or could find us quite easily in the archives if they haven't), that it might be nice to hear new voices, perhaps new ideas on this subject on this thread.

 

And since the original poster started this thread for married men to talk to each other, and since I am not legally married and don't remember you mentioning that you were, we are hijacking this thread by not adhereing to his original intention. Nothing wrong with starting a new thread if you want to. It would be easier for those who are interested to find and people would have more choice which, or both, to read.

[Bilbo]

"Being given pleasure and learning to accept it." I just wanted to take a second and praise that idea. It is very wise. A lot of people have trouble accepting pleasure without having to take over the exchange by immediately shifting their concentration to giving back rather than receiving. Bravo.

[dansci]

The accepting it part took some time...might be harder for "straight" guys used to taking charge in our roles.

I got to explore a completely different role with guys...a completely different sensuality.

I'm not sure if married guys don't read this forum or were scared off with the first attacks. I have had someone email me off the board and we have shared experiences...if anyone feels more comfortable doing this...it is great to exchange with someone who is going or has gone through this...so feel free to drop me an email. Or post here..I was expecting to "take it on the chin" by strating the thread but I was hoping that the conversation would then evolve into a real exchange. Or if you have a suggestion as to where it would be "safer" to post let me know.

[best hotel]

dansci....your inquiry was sensitive and open...too bad this topic resulted in such harsh judgement..i, too believe that sexuality is complex, marriage is complex, and the choices we make are not easy....to reduce a man's life to a closet is an oversimplification that does not do your post justice...i would be happy to discuss this with you via e-mail or phone...my address is available if you click on my handle for my profile....clearly, this forum is too judgemental for this topic....

[Curmudgeon]

>clearly, this forum is too judgemental for this topic....

 

Sad, but probably true.

 

However, if you take the discussion elsewhere they've won. You'll be giving a couple of mean girls exactly what they wanted in the first place.

 

How sad it is to watch a bunch that claims to support freedom of expression work so very hard opposing freedom of expression -- and win. x(

[BewareofNick]

>However, if you take the discussion elsewhere they've

>won. You'll be giving a couple of mean girls exactly what

>they wanted in the first place.

>

>How sad it is to watch a bunch that claims to support freedom

>of expression work so very hard opposing freedom of expression

>-- and win. x(

 

How little you comprehend. Substantive discussion is a good thing. You are ascribing motives and goals based on your own ill informed assumptions that have no basis in reality. That goes back to your inability to comprehend even the simplest of concepts. If you or anyone else gives up the discussion, it's because you made a conscious decision to do so. It has nothing to do with "mean girls" or any paranoid delsuions you have about what "mean girls" want.

[woodlawn]

> Reading people's pronouncements

>on my life who have been neither married or through a midlife

>crisis is only mildly amusing.

 

Why do you assume that the other posters on this board have less experience in such matters than you do? Apparently, if anyone disagrees with your actions it must be because they don't know anything about marriage or its problems. It can't be because they have had plenty of experience themselves but have come to different conclusions, right?

 

>My mid life crisis has taken this form...and I've chosen to

>explore it in private without blowing up her life ...we both

>suffered enough through hers. She really can't help me with it

>anyways....

 

If you are looking to discuss an issue with a diverse group of people who have different backgrounds, different perspectives and different opinions, a message board like this is not a bad place to do it. If all you want is what most viewers of Fox News want -- to hear their own opinions repeated back to them over and over again -- you should go somewhere else.

[Rod Hagen]

Thought some of you might appreciate this piece from the NYTimes Sunday magazine Ethicist section:

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/magazine/31ETHICIST.html

 

 

I tend to agree with much of what Cohen said. I think a healthy erotic life supercedes the vows, and not only because that condition profits me. Woodlawn, you feel differently. Since we all choose which strictures to adhere to--sometimes selfishly simply because the “rules” are inconvenient, but sometimes for higher reasons--I don't think it's possible to conclude definitively who's right: "Us" or the majority opinion (Woodlawn). And that sucks.

[woodlawn]

Rod, thanks for that link. Having read it, all I see the "ethicist" saying is that there are ways to rationalize what one wants to do to make it seem justifiable. That isn't exactly a new idea.

 

I think it was the poster phage who once said that he can understand how one can have a committed relationship without monogamy, but not how one can have such a relationship without honesty. I agree with that.

[Rod Hagen]

Wood, you're right, it does read like a rationalization. In fact, on my first run through I thought, Who's fucking Randy Cohen and does his wife read his column?

 

I don't assume that every attempts to explain why something, contrary, occurs is simply a rationalization of bad behavior. Sometimes it is, but sometimes an explanation is just a cigar. (that doesn't make it right, but it isn't necessarily the last recourse of desperate man either.)

 

http://www.RodHagen.com

310.360.9890

-Hagen

[dansci]

thanks for that...

I'm really not upset at the attacks...just annoyed that it has inhibited others from talking about their stories here. Some are now contacting me "off board" and I encourage others to do so..it helps me to "meet" others and talk...the same way others here must have tried to reach out at a point in their lives to find someone who felt the way they did. And this demographic is one of the most closeted and I suspect fearfull of all as we wrestle with our lives and duality. People here should think back to how they felt when they were told by people...some whom they even looked up to and respected...that what they were doing was immoral and unnatural...a sin even.

Just like many of you guys had to wrestle with the "morality" of being gay I've had to wrestle with this angel for some time now and come to terms with it without destroying my family. My original post was asking others about their stories...not asking for judgement or even support, any more than a gay male should have to put up with everyone else deciding whether they are "moral" or not.

Sometimes secrecy, discretion, isn't just selfish but also part of a desire to protect other loved ones who could not be asked to "understand" given the situation...people need to learn to respect these personel decisions the same way those who come out should be respected.

In any case, the topic did serve its purpose as contact has been made...and if the topic fades off and leaves a quiet discussion group behind in its wake that's OK too.

Rod...you are an escort..does every member of your family know that? If you choose not to tell your grandmother...to lie to her and say you are a personel trainer..is that immoral to protect her knowing she really isn't going to understand? In this case...I would say that lieing to your grandmother is the more ethical choice.

In any case...I do wanna say that through several escorts that I have met (and reviewed here at M4M) I have gained a deep respect for what many of you guys do and look at you as people ...some with very special gifts...who can give surpising intimacy...not just sex....when the chemistry is right. So even though we have never met...thanks for that.

[woodlawn]

> any more than a gay male

>should have to put up with everyone else deciding whether they

>are "moral" or not.

 

The fact is that we live in a society that is divided on the issue of gay sex and in which everyone has a right to his own opinion. Those who believe being gay is immoral have a right to that opinion and the rest of us have to "put up" with it whether we wish to or not because putting up with opinions you don't like is the price of freedom. Like many in the gay community you seem to think that freedom is only for those who agree with you.

 

>Sometimes secrecy, discretion, isn't just selfish but also

>part of a desire to protect other loved ones who could not be

>asked to "understand" given the situation...people need to

>learn to respect these personel decisions the same way those

>who come out should be respected.

 

Frankly, I have never heard of a situation in which someone is asked whether he wants to be lied to about a matter that concerns him intimately and answers "Yes." My respect is reserved for those who keep the promises they make, not for those who think up elaborate rationalizations for breaking their promises.

 

>Rod...you are an escort..does every member of your family know

>that? If you choose not to tell your grandmother

 

I know of no obligation Rod has to tell his grandmother or his other relatives everything about his life. The situation is hardly the same with someone to whom he has voluntarily made a pledge of total loyalty and fidelity; that person has a right to know what he is doing.

[Trixie]

The one experience I've had with a (known) married man has been neither gentle nor loving. In fact, it generally falls under the title "Wham, Bam, Thank you M'am." I've stopped "doing" him simply because, having met his wife and family, I find I like and respect her more than I do him. I suspect that she knows he fucks around, 'tho I don't imagine it's occurred to her that I might be one of his playthings.

He's a narcissist, and wants to be adored by anyone and everyone. During one of our encounters, he dragged me out of bed and to the floor in front of my armoire so that he could watch himself cum in the full-length mirror on the door.

Some married men may be lost souls, discovering themselves, but then again some others are simply swine.

I just wish I weren't so fond of bacon!

 

La Trix

[dansci]

Woodlawn...congratualtions on your 2000th post..that's a lot of opinions...I'm sure all carefully considered.

However, the response to this thread off board is now much larger than the responses on this board...all eager to share their stories without getting flamed...it is unfortunate that the other people who are interested on this board won't get the cahnce to hear what they have to say...some unmarried gay men, and perhaps some who will be getting into same sex marriages might have also learned something.

Wow...200 posts...congratulations again. Signing off now.

[woodlawn]

RE: Support Group

 

>Woodlawn...congratualtions on your 2000th post..that's a lot

>of opinions...I'm sure all carefully considered.

 

It's no big deal, really. 2,000 posts is a mere drop in the bucket compared to posters like Rick Munroe and Lucky, to name a few.

 

>However, the response to this thread off board is now much

>larger than the responses on this board...all eager to share

>their stories without getting flamed...it is unfortunate that

>the other people who are interested on this board won't get

>the cahnce to hear what they have to say.

 

Once again, you seem to have trouble understanding that a message board is not the same thing as a support group. If you are looking for a variety of opinions on a topic, some of which are bound to be very different from yours, a message board like this is the place to go. If what you really want is to hear only from people who sympathize with your situation and are prepared to make soothing, supportive noises for as long as you care to listen, you (and the vast number of people who have contacted you off board) need to go somewhere else. Got it?

[Guest mbarz]

RE: Support Group

 

>>However, the response to this thread off board is now much

>>larger than the responses on this board...all eager to share

>>their stories without getting flamed...it is unfortunate

>that

>>the other people who are interested on this board won't get

>>the cahnce to hear what they have to say.

>

>Once again, you seem to have trouble understanding that a

>message board is not the same thing as a support group. If

>you are looking for a variety of opinions on a topic, some of

>which are bound to be very different from yours, a message

>board like this is the place to go. If what you really want

>is to hear only from people who sympathize with your situation

>and are prepared to make soothing, supportive noises for as

>long as you care to listen, you (and the vast number of people

>who have contacted you off board) need to go somewhere else.

>Got it?

 

 

Woodlawn, he's already gone somewhere else, he posted this on BN's yahoo group as well. I'm sure the sycophants there will be more than happy to answer his questions, as long as he makes them think it's about BN and not him.

[woodlawn]

RE: Support Group

 

>Woodlawn, he's already gone somewhere else,

 

Good. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people who come here are unprepared to find that not everyone here has the same opinion on every issue. I suppose they've never seen a message board before.

[uptownmike]

RE: Support Group

 

I agree that different opinions should be allowed here, but being tolerant and respectful of other people and their opinions should be

practiced by all.

[Curmudgeon]

RE: Support Group

 

But it isn't practiced by all.

 

And the admin doesn't have the balls to make any punishment stick so there's no reason for anyone to bother.

 

<shrug>

 

 

The problem with making something foolproof is the universe keeps making better fools.

[taylorky]

RE: Support Group

 

>I agree that different opinions should be allowed here, but

>being tolerant and respectful of other people and their

>opinions should be

>practiced by all.

 

 

how can anyone be expected to respect someone that has no respect for the person they pledged fidelity too.

[Rick Munroe]

>Sometimes secrecy, discretion, isn't just selfish but also

>part of a desire to protect other loved ones who could not be

>asked to "understand" given the situation...people need to

>learn to respect these personel decisions the same way those

>who come out should be respected.

 

Good point. Our relationships with our families, partners, spouses, friends or anyone else in our lives is really nobody else's business. Of course, other people are free to post their judgments here, but to those of you who feel inhibited from posting because of that, I would just say: Don't take it seriously and please continue to post your thoughts and feelings. It's all anonymous, after all.

[Doug69]

RE: Support Group

 

>how can anyone be expected to respect someone that has no

>respect for the person they pledged fidelity too.

 

This is a superb point, Taylor.

 

For the people who prattle on here about the need to show "respect" to other people, it is a matter of the gravest moral concern when someone writes a post they think is kind of mean on an anonymous Internet message board about prostitutes.

 

But when someone systematically lies to, cheats on and deceives the person who is supposedly the most important person in their life, the one to whom they made life-long vows, why . . . that's no big deal at all, and people who engage in such despicable behavior should be cradled, understood and even applauded.

 

For them, "respecting" other human beings means that one should not write "mean" things on a message board, but it's perfectly OK to lie to and betray those closest to you in life.

 

What's going on here is quite clear. Nobody with a working brain would actually think that it's anything other than wrong to lie to and deceive one's spouse. If lying to your spouse and deliberately and repeatedly violating commitments you made isn't wrong, what is wrong? If that behavior can be excused and justified, what behavior can't be?

 

But the people here - amazingly - are defending and justifying this behavior, and are largely doing so for one of two reasons:

 

(1) They themselves lie to and deceive those closest to them, and therefore want to justify this behavior; or

 

(2) They are escorts whose clientele consists to a substantial degree of people who lie to and cheat on their spouses, and as a result, they want to justify this behavior, either in order to ingratitate themselves with these clients/prospective clients, and/or to cleanse themselves of any guilt they may feel from being a party facilitating these betrayals.

 

Anyone who does any bad act - whether rape, murder, robbery, lying - almost always has a REASON for doing so. But a REASON for committing an act is not the same thing as there being a JUSTIFICATION for the act.

 

Just because there are benefits one receives from committing a certain act does not mean that it's OK to commit that act.

 

I thought we learned that moral distinction at around the age of 10. I guess only some of us did.

[Doug69]

>Our relationships with our families, partners,

>spouses, friends or anyone else in our lives is really nobody

>else's business.

 

Is this true of people who come to message boards and write about intimate details in their personal life and ask others to comment? Is it also true of people who create blogs and then fill it talking about intimate details in their personal life?

 

In general, I agree that people are entitled to privacy with regard to their personal lives. It was based on exactly that principle that I found the invasion of Jeff Gannon's privacy (and Bill Clinton's) to be so objectionable.

 

But when someone comes on the Internet and invites others to read about and learn about their intimate personal lives and - in this case - expressly asks others to comment on it, it's a bit ludicrous, wouldn't you agree, to claim that this same personal life is nobody's business?

 

Of course, other people are free to post

>their judgments here, but to those of you who feel inhibited

>from posting because of that, I would just say: Don't take it

>seriously and please continue to post your thoughts and

>feelings. It's all anonymous, after all.

 

If someone is to follow your advice and "not take seriously" anyone's judgments that are posted here, why should they come and post at all? Unless all they want is to hear people validate their behavior and parrot what they already think, why would someone come and solicit opinions on a public message board about their personal life unless it is to hear precisely these judgments of other people?

[Rick Munroe]

>why would someone come and solicit opinions on a public

>message board about their personal life unless it is to hear

>precisely these judgments of other people?

 

I believe the original poster wanted to hear from other guys in similar situations.

 

95 fucking degrees in NYC...off to the beach. }(

[woodlawn]

>But when someone comes on the Internet and invites others to

>read about and learn about their intimate personal lives and -

>in this case - expressly asks others to comment on it, it's a

>bit ludicrous, wouldn't you agree, to claim that this same

>personal life is nobody's business?

 

Yes, I certainly would agree. In fact it's more than "a bit ludicrous," it's utterly absurd for people who go out of their way to make their lives a topic of conversation on a message board to complain because people talk about them. If you want privacy, Rick, then stop going on and on and on and on and on about your life on this message board.

 

> Unless all they want is to hear people

>validate their behavior and parrot what they already think,

 

I think you may be on to something there.