Do TOPS feel superior to BOTTOMS

[Guest Starbuck]

Interesting to hear what some of you think Starbuck was asking and what it was based on, but since I know Starbuck better than you, let me mention again (as Starbuck did in a post midway through this thread) that what he was primarily wondering about in his original post was whether some TOPS feel a sense of SOCIAL superiority to men who identify as BOTTOMS. He provided an analogy. Twice. Starbuck thinks that all the discussion and dispute over a sense of SEXUAL superiority is interesting too (and certainly closely related) and he is never surprised when a thread unravels in unforeseen ways. He thanks you for the interest in his most recent review but, for the record, it wasn't what he was thinking about when he wrote the original post. Starbuck thinks about many different things every single day.

[zeyfur]

I don't think the question is dumb in any way. When I top, I feel grateful to the bottom for letting me be a part of him, so no feelings of feeling superior here.

[JT Brooklyn]

Tops actually have to put more into their "Work" than Bottoms! Although there's somewhat of a controlling factor for a Bottom which could be considered work IF there's No Chemistry between the 2!

[+ Tom Isern]

the best intro to the topic of sex and power is alan sinfield’s “on sexuality and power.” the text bursts the illusion that there are spaces apart from power. the fact is that no relationships of any kind exist apart from power dynamics, acknowledged and conscious, or not, least of all the sexual.

 

we are constantly bombarded with a rather reactionary “ideology of equality” these days that says all romantic/sexual relationships have to be equal in power, age-appropriate, economically similar, etc. etc. an ideology that assumes there is one correct way to be “in relationship,” to have sex—”authentic eros”—to be sexual. what bullshit. sinfield makes the very helpful distinction between power differentials that are exploitive—always bad—and those that are healthy, fun, and energizing.

 

i am delighted to learn that there are escorts who believe that the relationships they share with their clients are not rooted in power, but are an “equal partnership” that is “mutual.” those are nice sentiments that work, i’m sure, from a marketing perspective, but we all know this: if they were true, the escort would have no basis on which to charge for his time. i’m especially amused when i see escorts who refer to their clients as “dates.” i’m sure this creates a very enticing illusion (marketing) for clients, but is at root rather a game. “boyfriend experience” or “fantasy” is more truth in advertising. that’s my two cents anyway...

 

oh. i think bottoms are infinitely SUPERIOR. especially the cock slurping, deep-throating, balls-slobbering, thigh-massaging, cock-adoring and worshipping variety i’ve encountered lately <wink> <wink>. tops just aren’t all that interesting.

[+ Tom Isern]

I think there's a lot of complex -- and fascinating -- psychology or a mindset that comes along with topping or bottoming.

I know there are guys who insist that topping and bottoming don't equate to domination and submission -- and I get what they are saying. But in my experience and generally speaking, the mere act of penetrating another guy's hole puts you in a dominating position and I definitely feel like I'm in a submissive mode when there's a cock going in and out of my asshole that's choosing its own rhythm and pace and duration.

[/b]

 

well said. the larger tradition, of course—spanning from ancient Greece to the 19th century—was that topping/penetrating was what "real" men did. being penetrated was the inferior/feminine position and was routinely throughout the centuries stigmatized. fragments of this mentality are far from dead today, and perhaps are part of what makes the role play so much fun. the top gets to feel he has claimed and penetrated and dominated his "prey" and the bottom gets to feel "taken," "sacrificed," "wanted," "used," etc. etc.

[whipped guy]

Given the postings of both Brooklyn Guy and Tom Isern, and conflating some of the thoughts in the two, I guess it is more difficult to be a Top/Dom... but given what the Bottom/Sub either prefers to endure or do makes him "superior".

 

That makes sense even if what Tom posted was a bit tongue in cheek. I have learned that in the S&M sense it is indeed more difficult to be a Dom. It can be quite draining, and it can be challenging to perfectly read the Sub and keep the ideal perspective. Of course a traditional Top has the burden of being able to adequately perform. Conversely, often in either situation what the Sub wants and needs is definitely WAY more "interesting" and in a sense that indeed makes him quite the "superior" in the connection... and I dare say, as Tom implies, even at times the one who is actually infinitely more skillful as well!!!

[+ Cash4Trash]

I do find that when I'm out socially with friends there is still a bit of the "I'm a top" arrogance, but I travel in an older crowd. #1) even mentioning it is defensive. #2) I think it has to do with years of being vilified and thinking "I may be a pile

of crap but I'm not the biggest pile of crap". I did see a Brazilian top escort for over 3 years and it was totally a situation where one of us completed the other. Once I was fantasizing while he was fucking me and he told me afterwards what I

was fantasizing.

[Michael Wayne]

How can I as a top feel superior to any bottom when my ENTIRE existence as a top depends on the continued existence of BOTTOMS! ALso when a cute hot bottom is the total fulfillment of all my sexual desires which CANNOT be met without him then how can I be superior? NOW...the flip side.... I feel as if this type of thinking exists because most bottoms see a hot hung masculine muscle top as SUPERIOR. I deal with this all the time in my biz. Clients want to, "Worship," me and my big cock. They want me to humiliate and dominate them as if I was and am superior. Sometimes I play along with it because I am a great actor and it pays good but deep down as a former minister I am actually uncomfortable with the term worship which I think shoud be reserved for God and god alone. I am clearly NOT a God (lol!!!) as any of my clients who has seen me first thing in the morning (horrors!) can attest to! http://www.rentboy.com/magicmikey

[Rod Hagen]

well said. the larger tradition, of course—spanning from ancient Greece to the 19th century—was that topping/penetrating was what "real" men did. being penetrated was the inferior/feminine position and was routinely throughout the centuries stigmatized. fragments of this mentality are far from dead today, and perhaps are part of what makes the role play so much fun. the top gets to feel he has claimed and penetrated and dominated his "prey" and the bottom gets to feel "taken," "sacrificed," "wanted," "used," etc. etc.

 

We, gen X, are the last of this tradition. Apart from the rare fetishists, Millennials truly couldn't care less about Top/Bottom dynamics. Versatility is the new iPhone, once something tres Moderne, now that's all you find in any younger man's jeans.

[+ Tom Isern]

some interesting top/bottom links:

 

http://kylemarchand.com/2012/05/07/so-are-you-a-top-or-a-bottom/

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gay-male-sex-roles

 

http://www.queerty.com/study-top-or-bottom-all-in-the-face-20130409/

 

i tend to be of this opinion: "Though many men despise being labeled, offering up their versatility as a selling point, like a six-figure income or well-defined lats, others say a versatile’s just a bottom in denial. 'New York is a bottom town,' says Jason. 'When you’re on manhunt.net and the profile says ‘versatile,’ you know that guy’s a bottom. It means he will top but doesn’t like to. I’m a bottom, and my profile says versatile.'"

 

http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/nakedcity/n_8728/

[bigvalboy]

some interesting top/bottom links:

 

http://kylemarchand.com/2012/05/07/so-are-you-a-top-or-a-bottom/

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gay-male-sex-roles

 

http://www.queerty.com/study-top-or-bottom-all-in-the-face-20130409/

 

i tend to be of this opinion: "Though many men despise being labeled, offering up their versatility as a selling point, like a six-figure income or well-defined lats, others say a versatile’s just a bottom in denial. 'New York is a bottom town,' says Jason. 'When you’re on manhunt.net and the profile says ‘versatile,’ you know that guy’s a bottom. It means he will top but doesn’t like to. I’m a bottom, and my profile says versatile.'"

 

http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/nakedcity/n_8728/

 

This gave me a chuckle. + interesting links = Thoughtful read. Thanks

[leigh.bess.toad]

i tend to be of this opinion: "Though many men despise being labeled, offering up their versatility as a selling point, like a six-figure income or well-defined lats, others say a versatile’s just a bottom in denial. 'New York is a bottom town,' says Jason. 'When you’re on manhunt.net and the profile says ‘versatile,’ you know that guy’s a bottom. It means he will top but doesn’t like to. I’m a bottom, and my profile says versatile.'"

 

You know I used to think that. Hell, I used to be that. But I really can honestly say I have come to enjoy topping as much as bottoming (thanks to the escorts who've helped me get there). When I started I was scared to death about topping. Fear of performance issues. Fear about my arthritis making it difficult. Not being a college gymnast and not being able to fuck 360 degrees. Fear of just being old. Fear of knowing guys thinking my dick was too small to even bother with anyway. Well over the years all those have proven utterly stupid (well except the college gymnast one -- that ain't happening). Now I love going into time with someone, be they escort or guy I meet on some hook-up site, not knowing what will happen. Flip-flops are incredibly fun and actually my ideal, so the concept of top/bottom gets blown out of the water. But last week, I bottomed for one guy, had a flip-flop with another, but was mostly a top during our time together, and for a 3rd I was exclusively a top. And loved them all equally. So anyone who thinks that people who say they are versatile are simply bottoms in denial really are fooling themselves. Because there are a lot of us out there.

[Steven_Draker]

Ah, these "wannabe" lazy tops ... http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif quite uninteresting indeed.

[Newly]

Starbuck thank you for introducing a very interesting thread. In my short time here I've noticed that there are 2 types of posters: those that just want to talk about how many escorts they've bagged and how big their dicks were, and some who want some understanding of what makes them tick. I find the first type to be pretty childish and insecure but so what? To each his own. I simply don't post on those threads. I have no qualms in saying that one of the main reasons I come to this forum is to figure out why I do this, and threads that are a bit more "intellectual" are very helpful. If people only want to talk about "fun" stuff they should just avoid this type of thread. To the topic at hand it's not like there hasn't been a lot of research on this topic. Jail inmates are a perfect example, even straight guys have "gay" sex, but it's not about sex, it's about domination and control. Here's a hint, social status is very much tied to being a top. Even with non-human social animals such as some primates and canines the pack leader routinely sodomizes lower ranking members, it's not a "gay" thing it's about social dominance. There are even lots of researchers who say that rape has nothing to do with sex, it's all about control. We can be as politically correct as we want, but it's pretty hard to deny instinct. None of this necessarily applies to escorts, Regardless of the boyfriend quality it is a business, and even young males have a definite amount of times they can come - so I imagine that for an escort being a bottom is also tied into earning the maximum amount possible. You know, I'm wondering if the number of escorts that top changed after Viagra became available? You can't totally change the male body, but it would allow escorts to top more often.

[Steven_Draker]

If people only want to talk about "fun" stuff they should just avoid this type of thread.

 

Probably some posters need to start dealing with their own control issues. ;-)

 

To the topic: the argument that "all versatile guys are bottoms in denial" is so old and tired.

 

Recommendation: get out there and experience some. I'm with LBT on that one.

[Damascene]

Honestly, yes, many tops see themselves superior. In a society that degrades women and degrades womanly men, that will happen. But assholes come as much as tops as bottoms, anyone who sees themselves as superior in either position and/or versatile is not worth sleeping with. Let alone paying for.

[Steven_Draker]

anyone who sees themselves as superior in either position and/or versatile is not worth sleeping with. Let alone paying for.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. That kind of arrogance gives me pause and makes my dick go soft.

 

My previous postings in this thread already stated that I find the question about top/bottom superiority somewhat inappropriate. Frankly, I do not believe in superiority, I believe in sharing pleasure and mutual pleasing. I do not believe in debasing and spurning my partner. I believe in enhancing his qualities and making him feel special.

 

Laying under a rim chair and sticking your tongue into a dirty asshole while being called a "faggot" has more to do with the concept of superior/inferior ... But to each his own.

[Phil_musc]

Once I was fantasizing while he was fucking me and he told me afterwards what I

was fantasizing.

 

Wow - now that's something. Are you sure the guy wasn't Jean Dixon or some other "medium" in drag with a strap-on?

[aspblom]

yes

[rvwnsd]

Remember high school, when the worst thing you could be called was a "faggot." It was the ultimate slur used by str8/jock/cool boys to tell other boys that they were better than them.

 

Fast forward, and here we are: a bunch of mostly gay men hanging out, talking about sex, with other mostly gay men. But have some of us taken on that old str8/jock/cool boy attitude of feeling better than some of the rest of us? Do TOPS (some of them, anyway) feel a sense of superiority to BOTTOMS? Is it part of the psychology of being on top, part of the pleasure and satisfaction of that role?

 

I've never been fucked by a guy whose actions or words indicated he felt superior to me because he is a top and I am a bottom. More than a handful have acted as if they were superior while fucking me, but that was obviously part of the "let's pretend" that often accompanies sex. For the record, this type of play generally does nothing for me. Almost all of the guys who started down this road have sensed that and stopped, which I think underscores the notion that the "superiority" of the top is just play. Had they continued the "superior" act I would not have minded. A few guys have stated they wish they had the self-esteem and self-confidence to let someone fuck them, which I think a) renders a pleasurable activity like sex far more academic than it needs to be and b) speaks more about their insecurities than it does about top vs bottom vs versatile.

 

I think we would be better off if we didn't focus on the evils or virtues of labels and just let ourselves have a good time when having sex.

[+ g56whiz]

Wasn't there an old adage to the effect that the best tops had started out as knowledgeable bottoms?

[+ Gar1eth]

Wasn't there an old adage to the effect that the best tops had started out as knowledgeable bottoms?

 

I used to hear that a lot on the Forum or similar places. And while I understand it, I think if the top just listens to what the bottom likes then it should be fine assuming top can comply. I mean some bottoms might like things taken slow- others fast. Sex should be about trying to please each other than only one person enjoying it. Now this doesn't apply to me because I lack the physical qualities being underendowed. But if a top is of normal proportions ( and assuming the bottom can be satisfied by a normal to on the large size endowment) and able to maintain an erection- well then if the top just listens to how/what the bottom likes. I don't see how any top- again provided they have the physical requirements- couldn't be a great top. But several escorts that I have been with have told me that isn't true. That they have met lots of top guys who are lousy tops. I have trouble understanding it- but I would think again it's because the top is t listening to what the bottom likes.

 

Gman

[Epigonos]

I've never been physically comfortable bottoming and additionally I'm not the greatest top in the world. Thus I stick to oral sex. But the truth is I have always envied the guys who are great bottoms. I'm with bigvalboy when he said there is nothing sexier than watching a muscle boy bottom raping his top. To my way of thinking a really great bottom is the one in control.

[aspblom]

Very articulate! thanks...john

[+ FreshFluff]

Quoting from a different thread:

 

2. In the gay community in general, aging is worse for bottoms than for tops for whatever reason. Though there may be tops to be had, they all seem to want some 20something twink. So not only are there more bottoms than tops, the tops often don't want a bottom who is almost 50. Hence, I started turning to escorts to satisfy my bottom itch.

 

A few years ago, I read a book called Tearoom trade by Laud Humphreys, written around 1970. (I wrote about this a few years ago but messed up the terms "top" and "bottom" and confused everyone!) The author, a then-closeted man who was a gay ally, wanted to do a PhD dissertation on tearoom sex. He observed and covertly made notes on sexual encounters in tearooms and then, posing as a public health surveyor, managed to interview the same men at home.

 

One of his conclusions was precisely the opposite of what DG (and many others) have expressed: He wrote that being an non-reciprocating "insertor" was a privilege that came with youth. "In most cases, fellatio is a service performed by an older man upon a younger." Part of the aging crisis, he said, was learning to accept the "insertee" role.

 

I wonder why this has changed so dramatically since 1970? Most of the men in Humphreys' study were married and closeted, but then, so are many clients these days.

 

In this passage, he talks about one of the men he observed and interviewed:

AGING CRISIS

 

Not only is Tom moving into a social position that may cause him to reinterpret his sexual drive, he is also approaching a point of major crisis in his career as a tearoom participant. At the time when I observed him in an act of fellatio, he played the insertor role. Still relatively young and handsome, Tom finds himself sought out as “trade”—that is, those men who make themselves available for acts of fellatio, but who, regarding themselves as “straight,” refuse to reciprocate in the sexual act. Not only is that the role he expects to play in the tearoom encounters, it is the role others expect of him.

 

 

“I’m not toned up anymore,” Tom complains. He is gaining weight around the middle and losing hair. As he moves past 35, Tom will face the aging crisis of the tearooms. Less and less frequently will he find himself the one sought out in these meetings. Presuming that he has been sufficiently reinforced to continue this form of sexual operation, he will be forced to seek other men. As trade, he was not expected to reciprocate, but he will soon be increasingly expected to serve as insertee for those who have first taken that role for him.

 

In most cases, fellatio is a service performed by an older man upon a younger. In one encounter, for example, a man appearing to be around forty was observed as insertee with a man in his twenties as insertor. A few minutes later, the man of forty was being sucked by one in his fifties. Analyzing the estimated ages of the principal partners in 53 observed acts of fellatio, I arrived at these conclusions: The insertee was judged to be older than the insertor in 40 cases; they were approximately the same age in 3; and the insertor was the older in 10 instances. The age differences ranged from an insertee estimated to be twenty-five years older than his partner to an insertee thought to be ten years younger than his insertor.

 

Strong references to this crisis of aging are found in my interviews with cooperating respondents, one of whom had this to say:

Well, I started off as the straight young thing. Everyone wanted to suck my cock. I wouldn’t have been caught dead with one of the things in my mouth! . . . So, here I am at forty—with grown kids—and the biggest cocksucker in [the city]!

 

 

Similar experiences were expressed, in more reserved language, by another man, some 15 years his senior:

I suppose I was around thirty-five—or thirty-six—when I started giving out blow jobs. It just got so I couldn’t operate any other way in the park johns. I’d still rather have a good blow job any day, but I’ve gotten so I like it the way it is now.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tss/tearoom.html