Another Loss

[Boston Guy]

Hey TY -

 

Beautiful day in Boston, isn't it? I just decided to play hookey and went for long bike ride on the Esplanade. Great ride, great weather, beautiful boys out... what more can one ask for? :-)

 

>

>We do differ on the principle

>of 'negotiating' though, although I

>must say that you present

>the most rational and reasonable

>discussion for it that I

>recall seeing... you almost have

>me convinced. :-)

>

>However, I'm not a negotiator by

>personality... when I buy a

>new car I do my

>research, bring in the facts

>and figures, set my own

>target price including a small

>delta for 'negotiating' room, let

>them know what I know

>about the real price info

>and what I'm willing to

>pay. Within those parameters

>we either pull the trigger

>after a short mating ritual

>or I walk.

>

 

Everyone approaches negotiations in their own way. It sounds like you have found a way that works for you and that's all that counts. Lots of guys haven't done that and don't like negotiations, which is really too bad because good negotiations can leave both parties with more than they started out with and happier, too.

 

I'll give you an escort example that happened to me recently. It was a sunny afternoon in LA and I had some time to kill. I decided to hire an escort. None of the guys I normally might see were available, so I called a new guy. He wanted to charge $300. I told him I didn't pay more than $200 per hour and was sorry we wouldn't get a chance to meet. He immediately asked if I was only interested in one hour, since he had the afternoon free as well.

 

I thought about that and asked what he had in mind. He said "How about $300 for 90 minutes?". I said OK, that sounded like a reasonable compromise. He came over, ended up staying two hours by his choice and I still paid him $300. I then took him out for a late lunch at a fun restaurant. We both had fun, both said "let's get together again" and I really enjoyed the entire episode.

 

From his point of view, he was $300 richer and I think he was being honest when he said he enjoyed the 2.75 hours or so we spent together.

 

I didn't start out by trying to nickel and dime him. In fact, I was willing to accept his price of $300 on face value and move on, just as I would assume he would accept my $200 per hour limit on face value as well.

 

But by him asking me if I was only interested in one hour and my then asking him what he had in mind, we opened the doors to a friendly negotiation that ended in a compromise we were both pleased with.

 

At no time during the negotiations did either of us suggest that the other person was being unreasonable or mean or nasty or anything negative at all. Neither one of us ever question the other person's value at all. Instead, we tried to figure out what it was that the other person wanted -- the true secret to all successful negotiations.

 

Good negotiating isn't about winning while the other guy loses; I happen to think that if one party walks away from the table feeling like he got screwed, nobody wins. Instead, I think good negotiators try to find a way to get everyone a good deal of what they are looking for.

 

In my example, I wanted to have some fun and, because my rule is not to pay more than $200 per hour, I didn't want to pay more than that. Over that and I go read a book. The young escort I was speaking to wanted to make $300 and he wanted to do it in an hour.

 

I was willing to compromise on the total amount of money I would spend, so long as the rate stayed within my personal limit. He was willing to spend a little extra time (originally 30 minutes) in order to make $300. When we discovered that what we were both willing to bend on put us within reach of a pleasant agreement, we were both happy.

 

>I just don't see my style

>applying to the escort issue.

> I also, don't see

>the escorts attitude being improved

>by the process.

 

Most escorts are pretty young and most experienced negotiators are not. Young people in any career tend to approach negotiations with some trepidation or possibly even anger or annoyance. Skillful negotiators often take advantage of the emotions inexperienced negotiators bring to the table.

 

But inexperienced negotiators can really improve their negotiating skills quite a lot by following a few simple rules:

 

(1) Find out as much as possible what the other party wants (which means asking questions and listening carefully to the answers and to the words that aren't said). Be willing to ask hard questions and listen carefully to the answers. (Not doing so is a big mistake inexperienced salespeople make all the time. If you don't find out what objections the other person has, you can't possibly respond to them.) Don't take what the other party says personally -- this is a negotiation, not an evaluation of your own self-worth.

 

(2) Try to find out how much wiggle room the other party has; if a negotiator asks for something the other party simply cannot give, and insists on it, the negotiations are doomed.

 

(3) Know what you want, know what wiggle room you have, know what you are willing to give up and know what you want to stand fast on.

 

(4) Empathise with the other person (really), try to put yourself in his shoes and see if there are ways you can possibly help him. Sometimes there are things a skilled negotiator can find and throw into the mix that will help the other side but weren't originally being asked for at all.

 

(5) Be friendly and likeable -- it's really hard to say no to someone you really like. And even if this negotiation doesn't succeed, there may well be another one down the road. It's sort of the old 'be nice to people on the way up because you never know who you'll see on the way down' thing. Even when you are turning someone down, it can be done in a positive way that is thoughtful, kind and isn't personal.

 

Good negotiations undertaken in good faith by an escort and a potential client can easily improve both people's attitudes, because the process of negotiation can help each one find out how to make the other person happy.

 

Forgive me if I sound naive, but I don't think that most escorts are in this SOLELY for the money. It's the most important single factor for most of them, for sure, but escorts are people, too. They have to eat, they want to have fun, they want to know that they are desirable, they want to interact with other people -- all of these and more are important and the process of negotiating a get together will sometimes help the client understand what's important to the escort just as it will help the escort understand what's important to the client.

 

>On the

>other hand the recent down

>turn in the economy may

>mitigate some negative reactions to

>the practice. I have

>had a Florda escort confide

>in me that prices are

>dropping in his area though

>the drop is not necessarily

>being advertised openly.

 

I posted something a couple of months ago about this. In a downturning economy, consultants often get quite worried. In some industries -- not all of them -- consultants are one of the first things to be cut in order to lower costs.

 

Similarly, for some clients, if the economy is bad, money that might otherwise have been spent on descretionary fun (read "escorts") may well be spent on other things. We've been in an up economy for so long (and really still are in lots of ways) that most young guys don't remember what a bad economy is like. But trust me, if we do go into a recession, those $300 per hour and $500 per hour fees will, in many cases, be only a memory. Supply and demand... it all comes down to supply and demand.

[Barry]

Theron,

 

I wasn't hiring 20 years ago so I really don't know if $100 was the going rate back then.

 

Respectfully I don't think you can compare escort hourly rates with wage and salary administration. Escorts provide a "luxury" service and the rates are governed much more by the economy and the market "supply & demand" as Boston Guy points out. Also as TY and BG have pointed out, a downturn in the economy usually reduces ones "discretionary income" or mad money. Business travel is also often reduced. That does have an effect on escort rates just as it does on the price of boats, luxury autos and hotel rates.

 

As far as your rate being "less than most"...I disagree in the Chicago market. The average has been creeping up to $200 over the past year.

[Guest Theron]

>Forgive me if I sound naive,

>but I don't think that

>most escorts are in this

>SOLELY for the money.

>It's the most important single

>factor for most of them,

>for sure, but escorts are

>people, too. They have

>to eat, they want to

>have fun, they want to

>know that they are desirable,

>they want to interact with

>other people -- all of

>these and more are important

>and the process of negotiating

>a get together will sometimes

>help the client understand what's

>important to the escort just

>as it will help the

>escort understand what's important to

>the client.

 

I can only speak for myself. I work, I think like most of us do, even those of us who are not escorts, for the money. I am an artist, and escorting allows me to have free time to develop my work, and also support myself, so that I will not be a starving artist. If it did not meet this need in my life I would not escort. That said, I also happen to have genuine love in my heart for people and sincerely enjoy spending time with others. If this were not the case, I could not escort, as I really do enjoy the interactions with the people I meet.

 

The only point I wanted to clarify is, despite truly enjoying people, I do not escort to meet unmet needs. Say for example I had a free afteroon. I could cook, I'm an outstanding cook, and invite friends over to eat, hang out with them, and even go out later and find someone to personally hook up with sexually. I do not depend on my clients to meet those needs for me because I meet them for myself, so for the the opportunity to hang out and have sex with a client would not be sufficent for me to reduce my rate. It may very well be for others, though :-)

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest Theron]

>Theron,

>

>I wasn't hiring 20 years ago

>so I really don't know

>if $100 was the going

>rate back then.

>

>Respectfully I don't think you can

>compare escort hourly rates with

>wage and salary administration.

>Escorts provide a "luxury" service

>and the rates are governed

>much more by the economy

>and the market "supply &

>demand" as Boston Guy points

>out. Also as TY

>and BG have pointed out,

>a downturn in the economy

>usually reduces ones "discretionary income"

>or mad money. Business

>travel is also often reduced.

>That does have an effect

>on escort rates just as

>it does on the price

>of boats, luxury autos and

>hotel rates.

 

Hi :-)

 

You have some valid points, the price for an escort is almost always determined by what the market will bear, and that is influenced by the econnmy. As I pointed out, my rates are considerbly below the figure I mentioned. I merely made the point, that when you consider even a 6% annual rate of inflation that an escort who made 100.00 twenty years ago would make 302.40 in todays market, to remind people it is probably not too reasonable to expect prices to be the same as they were twenty years ago.

 

>

>As far as your rate being

>"less than most"...I disagree in

>the Chicago market. The

>average has been creeping up

>to $200 over the past

>year.

 

In Chicago escorts tend to charge as little as 150.00, and as much as 250.00. I know quite a few who are at 200.00 in the Chicago market. You are right when you say it has been creaping up to that over the past year. 175.00 use to be the mark for Chicago. When I made the statement my rates are above some and below many, I was refering more to rates Internationally than I was Chicago, specifically. Anyhow, I stand corrected. You are correct, in Chicago my rates are more towards the upper end.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

BG,

 

You do make a very rational and compelling argument...

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

BG

 

it was a BEAUTY of a day... wish I could have played hooky too. Alas, a very busy week for me... :-(

[Guest regulation]

I venture to say that the reason some escorts have found this forum inhospitable is that they have not wanted to use it in the same manner as the rest of us. Rather than merely posting their opinions on various issues like everyone else, they have wanted to appear here in their character as escorts in order to promote themselves. There's nothing wrong with this so far as I'm concerned, but so far as they're concerned the problem is that they also attract questions and criticisms concerning their behavior as escorts, as happened with Zack Evans. Those like Zack who can't handle that sort of thing don't last very long. Those like JeffOH and Rod Hagen who can handle it do last. One might almost call it a process of natural selection.

[Boston Guy]

I agree.

 

However, as with the process by which we seem to select the US President, I would question if the strengths we are selecting for are the correct ones.

 

I for one do not choose escorts on the basis of how strenuously they will argue or how thick their skin is.

 

Instead, I seek fun, interesting, sexy, thoughtful, considerate, passionate guys. Sort of the type we collectively seem to frighten away with alarming regularity.

[Guest regulation]

>I for one do not choose

>escorts on the basis of

>how strenuously they will argue

>or how thick their skin

>is.

>

 

I don't think that's quite fair to the people I mentioned who have stuck it out, do you? Rod and Jeff have a number of things in common. Both talk about themselves and their work with disarming candor and modesty. They don't seem to look down on others. They don't lose control and resort to hate speech when challenged but conduct themselves in a mature and levelheaded manner. I think these are the qualities that have made them "keepers" so far as the forum is concerned. I only wish there were more like them.

 

 

>Instead, I seek fun, interesting, sexy,

>thoughtful, considerate, passionate guys.

>Sort of the type we

>collectively seem to frighten away

>with alarming regularity.

 

I wasn't involved in the controversy regarding Jason, so I can't speak about that. But I do not recollect any other escort in the recent past who has been frightened away and who fits your description.

[Guest Theron]

I venture to say the reason many escorts have found this fourm inhospitable is because there are a small percent of people who appear to have genuine hate in their heart for escorts, who also appear to derive a great deal of pleasure out of treating them poorly, at the very first opportunity they get. Posters like Regulation, for example, who has said things like most prostitutes need serious therapy, and that the reputations of prostitutes are not very important to him. One must wonder why these type of people bother to come into the Message Center, at all. It is a shame that they intimidate many escorts with their very ugly behavior and drive them off, thereby spoiling the fun for everyone else.

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest regulation]

>I venture to say the reason

>many escorts have found this

>fourm inhospitable is because there

>are a small percent of

>people who appear to have

>genuine hate in their heart

>for escorts, who also appear

>to derive a great deal

>of pleasure out of treating

>them poorly, at the very

>first opportunity they get.

>Posters like Regulation, for example,

 

 

You really can't help yourself, can you?

[Boston Guy]

I wasn't really responding in terms of any particular posters. I agree that there are a few here (very few) who have stuck around who seem to be very classy guys. (Rod does seem to have disappeared, though.)

 

Instead, I was thinking of the vast majority of escorts who never post here. Many have over the last two years, but they all seem to come to the same conclusion, more or less quickly -- that posting here is not a good thing for them or their careers.

 

And I think we collectively lose quite a bit by maintaining an atmostphere that is in general hostile to escorts.

 

Much as I enjoy the give and take with other clients -- and I do -- there are many times when I would really welcome an honest escorts' perspective. Early in the history of M4M, that would happen fairly often. But, aside from the few regulars, few ever show up anymore.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

well theron so we don't forget what it's really about i think you have a very nice website (did you happen to barter services with a talented webmaster or do you have talents in several fields?).

 

also, you have unusually nice bedhead--like ur pics best where ur look like u just woke up.

 

and in this era of smooth and str8-appearing anything that walks, love your chest hair.

 

if i send u enuf complimentary messages, can u send me some clippings?

 

please get back on this very boring thread,

jizz

[Guest regulation]

>Instead, I was thinking of the

>vast majority of escorts who

>never post here. Many

>have over the last two

>years, but they all seem

>to come to the same

>conclusion, more or less quickly

>-- that posting here is

>not a good thing for

>them or their careers.

 

 

Or, they stop posting here in their character as escorts and start posting in a capacity that doesn't advertise their services but does free them from the attentions of dissatisfied clients.

 

At any rate, BG, we live in a meritocracy, do we not? We must have some methog of separating the wheat, like Rod and Jeff, from the chaff, like the rest. Isn't that what this site is supposed to be about?

 

And what are you doing up at this hour, anyway? You should be in bed with a nice cup of Ovaltine, shouldn't you? :-)

[Guest AIM]

But he is right.

[Guest Theron]

Neither can you :-)

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest regulation]

>At any rate, BG, we live

>in a meritocracy, do we

>not? We must have

>some methog of separating the

>wheat, like Rod and Jeff,

>from the chaff, like the

>rest. Isn't that what

>this site is supposed to

>be about?

>

>And what are you doing up

>at this hour, anyway?

>You should be in bed

>with a nice cup of

>Ovaltine, shouldn't you? :-)

>

 

"Methog," indeed! I should turn in as well. Unfortunately, I have an appointment elsewhere to humiliate some people who oppose the Kennedy-McCain Patients' Bill of Rights. Ciao! :-)

[Guest Theron]

>At any rate, BG, we live

>in a meritocracy, do we

>not? We must have

>some methog of separating the

>wheat, like Rod and Jeff,

>from the chaff, like the

>rest. Isn't that what

>this site is supposed to

>be about?

 

No, I don't think so, because if it were, you'd of been long gone with the garbage, Regulation.

 

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest Theron]

Hi, Jizz :-)

 

Thanks for your kind comments. A man after my own heart :-)

 

I designed my website myself. I'm glad you like it.

 

Now with regard to your request -- you never know. I think I heard somewhere once that flattery will get you everywhere!

 

gros bisous (big kisses)

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

[Guest jizzdepapi]

doesn't anyone in here like to fuck anymore?

 

kewl theron.

 

i would think about sending you a pic but i've been disemboweled by a slovenly modem. that's okay--i never did have that bris i was promised (hint: if u were to remove my chest hairs, i would want you to do it very slowly, pluck by pluck, as the saying goes.

 

anyway, i hope you have a nice night and that the yelling in here doesn't get too loud.

 

best,

jizz

 

p.s.: one of the things i like best about your website is that i can TURN THE MUSIC OFF. not that i'm anti-music, mind you--in fact i am probably playing some baroque something-or-other at any given time and prefer to keep it that way. it's nice to have that choice.

 

p.p.s.: sorry i'm a little chatty; guess it's just pic-posting withdrawal syndrome (PPWS)

[Guest pickwick]

>One must

>wonder why these type of

>people bother to come into

>the Message Center, at all.

> It is a shame

>that they intimidate many escorts

>with their very ugly behavior

>and drive them off, thereby

>spoiling the fun for everyone

>else.

 

 

I must have missed the election where you were picked to speak for the other 800 active members of the site. Without posters like Reg, Fin Fang, Traveller, BewareofNick and a few others this message center would be about as much fun as Friday night at the Elks Lodge. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em.

[Guest jeffOH]

Reg...God forbid I criticize some of my fellow escorts(I can

already hear the bloodhounds),but I have questioned the motives

of some escorts and their postings. Initially, when I decided to

enter the fray, I didn't feel it was necessary to reveal exactly

who I was. To me it seemed irrelevant. I didn't want to appear

as if I was promoting myself. I wanted to participate in real

discussions. I didn't want it to be about me.

 

A few have guys come off as kind of two-dimensional...no real opinions that might discourage a potential client from calling them. Some of the threads often sound more like escorts and

their groupies chattering away. Apparently, that's fine with some

of these guys, maybe they can't see through the charade or don't

want to...I don't know. I got over wanting people to like me at

all costs years ago. I no longer try to figure out what people want to hear so they will like me. I was looking for validation

outside of myself. The ego always wants more. Frankly, my goal

was to engage in some stimulating discussions here. I don't have

enough of that in my life right now.

 

Some posters have expressed shock as to the actions of particular

escorts recently. They felt like they KNEW the escort. "I can't

believe that Zack/Jason, whoever, would do such a thing." Guys,

I'm here to tell you some escorts are masters of illusion and

manipulation. So maybe all you had gotten to know was the facade.

Some of these guys have sounded just a little to good to be true,

not all, but some.

 

I'm here to express my opinions and if someone doesn't like some-

thing I've said...well that's fine. Pretty much their problem,

not mine. I'll continue to sleep well at night.

 

There's room for everyone here, I suppose. I think some of the

client/posters don't really want to hear the truth. They want the

fantasy to continue. Someone,I forget who, said this is a great

place to get to know an escort even better. That's true, but only

to the extent of the escort's transparency.

 

Some of these threads have been quite compelling...I've often

found myself "tuning in" to see what someone would say next. So

much drama, passion, marathon debates and I guess as long as there is enough of that here, I'll continue to hang around.

By the way, thanks for the compliment, REG.

 

Jeff4hire@aol.com

[Guest jizzdepapi]

One = One?

 

>>One must ...

 

jeez, pickwick, what election? I thought "one," in the sense in which it is used in this sentence, meant "one."

 

just a thought,

jizz

[Guest pickwick]

>I'm here to express my opinions

>and if someone doesn't like

>some-

>thing I've said...well that's fine. Pretty

>much their problem,

>not mine. I'll continue to sleep

>well at night.

>

>There's room for everyone here, I

>suppose. I think some of

>the

>client/posters don't really want to hear

>the truth. They want the

>

>fantasy to continue. Someone,I forget who,

>said this is a great

>

>place to get to know an

>escort even better. That's true,

>but only

>to the extent of the escort's

>transparency.

>

 

Hey, Jeff, I'm sorry I didn't mention you in my list of fun posters. You always have something interesting to say. Please consider yourself included in "a few others."

 

I really agree with the above. Not too long ago I attended a lecture by Joan Claybrook of Public Citizen. She's been warning people about the problems with the Ford Explorer for years but no one listened. Of course the automobile industry and everyone who makes money from them wanted her to shut up, that's understandable. But it surprised me when she said that even the consumers wanted her to shut up. People who bought or wanted to buy one of those cars didn't want to hear about the problems with them, they simply wanted to enjoy the macho fantasy Ford was selling. I think it's the same here.

 

Have a good one!

[Guest Theron]

>I must have missed the election

>where you were picked to

>speak for the other 800

>active members of the site.

> Without posters like Reg,

>Fin Fang, Traveller, BewareofNick and

>a few others this message

>center would be about as

>much fun as Friday night

>at the Elks Lodge.

>If you don't like 'em,

>don't read 'em.

 

Hi :-)

 

I was only expressing my opinion, but I can honestly say quite a few people would disagree with you about Reg contributing in positive ways. You have no idea how many members wrote me personally and shared their private thoughts about Reg, when he and I were engaged in a difference of opinion, and those thoughts were not very pleasant at all.

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html