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Losgatan
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Well, folks, I fear we may have lost another escort from this board.

 

Unfortunately, Hoo had to delete Zack Evans' most recent response to the allegations in the "Why I Escort" thread because it contained some personal information -- information that was key to Zack's defense of himself.

 

I don't pretend to know the whole truth here. But, I strongly suspect that there's more going on than we know. Was the tasteless note received by Regulation actually sent by Zack? Could there have been a valid reason for Zack's no-show with N.N.?

 

As things stand, it's going to be very hard for Zack to re-establish his credibility on this board. And, I certainly wouldn't blame him if he decided not to try.

 

However, if he does, let's not dismiss him out-of-hand.

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Guest Theron

Hi, BIG SMILE!

 

There is a way to determine if Zack is the person who actually sent the offensive e-mail to Regulation. I do not know how many of you are aware of this, but anyone can easily forge an e-mail address to make it appear it was sent by someone when it actually was not. The possibility exists that someone may have done this to Zack.

 

Determining if the message is a forgery or authentic is easily done by checking the headers within the message. I think we should give Zack the benefit of doubt. He has said he did not send this message. Things are not always as they appear, and we must be careful to draw conclusions where people's good names are involved. My suggestion would be that Regulation forward the message, which will contain the headers, to an independent party who can ascertain quickly and easily if the message is authentic.

 

Concerning Zack's responsibility to answer the question posed by N.N. in the thread, N.N. has already said that he privately sent Zack a copy of the e-mail about their meeting to refresh his memory, and that Zack was able to explain it to him, privately. N.N. left the impression that he is satisfied with Zack's response. This should be sufficient. The matter has been resolved between the parties it affected. Sure, some of us may be interested in learning what happened, but if the two parties it affected are satisified, it is really none of our business.

 

Anyhow, that is my .02.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron :-)

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Message to Zack

 

>Well, folks, I fear we may

>have lost another escort from

>this board.

>

>Unfortunately, Hoo had to delete Zack

>Evans' most recent response to

>the allegations in the "Why

>I Escort" thread because it

>contained some personal information --

>information that was key to

>Zack's defense of himself.

>

>I don't pretend to know the

>whole truth here. But,

>I strongly suspect that there's

>more going on than we

>know. Was the tasteless

>note received by Regulation actually

>sent by Zack? Could

>there have been a valid

>reason for Zack's no-show with

>N.N.?

>

>As things stand, it's going to

>be very hard for Zack

>to re-establish his credibility on

>this board. And, I

>certainly wouldn't blame him if

>he decided not to try.

>

>

>However, if he does, let's not

>dismiss him out-of-hand.

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RE: Message to Zack

 

I hate not having an edit key. I didn't intend to make a copy of Losgatan's entire post. My finger slipped. What I was trying to say to Zack was ... hang in there buddy. This too shall pass. Eventually the various threads about this controversy will be buried on the board and most people will forget all about it. Please don't be a stranger. I enjoy your contributions.

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Here's the story.

 

On my own initiative, I told Zack up front that I'm HIV

positive. At first he said that was okay, but at some point

it freaked him out and he chose not to see me. At the time,

he just left me hanging; it wasn't until two days ago that he

explained what had gone through his mind. That explanation

was what I'd asked for; I really did want to know what

someone is thinking when they fail to keep promises and

won't explain why.

 

I submitted a note to the "why do I escort" thread that I'd

hoped would be a good way to close the discussion: rather

than saying anything negative, I just said that Zack had

written to me and explained what had happened. I still don't

think it's justified that he'd flaked, but at least a loose

end was finally tied up. But the thread (and others that it

spawned, like this one) refused to die.

 

There are escorts who will gladly take clients whose HIV

status they don't know, but who freak out when they hear a

client is positive. I won't argue with an escort at that

point--I simply respect their choice. But if an escort is

charging $200/hr and representing himself as a professional,

the good thing to do is to contact the client to cancel.

 

I care about the health of others. I'll only do what I

and the escort both feel is safe. And no matter whether

an escort turns me down or agrees to see me, they are

usually appreciative that I told them about my status.

 

Like others, I find it unfortunate that the thread got so

nasty. But I stand by my decision to use the thread as a

venue to ask Zack why he had left me hanging back in January.

Perhaps more than most people, I don't like loose ends.

And isn't keeping escorts accountable part of the point of

this web site?

 

I have sympathy for escorts (and everyone else) trying to

come to terms with the realities of HIV. It's a challenge.

But that doesn't change the fact that if you want to be

known as a professional, you should keep your promises.

 

I wish Zack well.

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Guest Tampa Yankee

N.N.

 

"Like others, I find it unfortunate that the thread got so

nasty."

 

The thread did take an unfortunate turn; and it is also unfortunate that you had to sacrifice your privacy in order to put some closure to this episode. Your willingness to do so says quite a bit about you as a person.

 

I also sympathize with Zack's struggle to face an issue that all escorts need to address; and while I make no judgment on which way they decide ultimately, they need to address it and the client forthrightly. I do make some allowance for youth and inexperience which may be the circumstance in your (and Zack's) case. (Everyone should be permitted one mistake.) I was impressed that Zack dealt with you forthrightly in your private email exchange -- indicating growfh in his ability handle some of the more weighty issues that arise.

 

A final thought -- I think that Zack missed the opportunity to meet a special client.

 

I wish both of you well.

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I know Zach Evans and he's a very decent guy. I would be very surprised if there wasn't more to this story and I can't see the Zach I know sending hate mail; he seems much too bright for that.

 

But we all make mistakes and perhaps we'll never know for sure what happened. I, too, hope he continues to post here but I fear that he will quickly discover what most other escorts have discovered -- that posting on this board is just too risky and that raising your profile will inevitably lead to some kind of unfortunate interaction with clients.

 

Perhaps it doesn't have to be that way, but the track record is clear as are the results: out of hundreds or thousands of escorts actively escorting today, a small handful post in the message center. I'd guess the number is less than ten and it feels more like four or five. Most escorts who used to post here choose not to anymore, although my suspicion is that many lurk.

 

Escorts I know routinely ask not to be reviewed: they don't want notoriety and they don't want to be discussed in the message center. In most cases, these are guys with full-time jobs who escort part-time for fun and extra cash, who have more than enough clients, and who simply don't want to be part of a slash-and-burn.

 

Hiring escorts is supposed to be about having fun. Sometimes it feels like we collectively take the process much too seriously here.

 

And I should add that I intend these comments as a general comment rather than a reference to what happened in this thread. I don't know what went on, I didn't see the post that was deleted, I have no reason to doubt Regulation, and I view Zach as a good guy. So I have no basis for commenting on the merits of what anyone said above and I don't want to express any opinion other than to say that the whole thing was unfortunate.

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Guest Theron

I,

>too, hope he continues to

>post here but I fear

>that he will quickly discover

>what most other escorts have

>discovered -- that posting on

>this board is just too

>risky and that raising your

>profile will inevitably lead to

>some kind of unfortunate interaction

>with clients.

>

>Perhaps it doesn't have to be

>that way, but the track

>record is clear as are

>the results: out of

>hundreds or thousands of escorts

>actively escorting today, a small

>handful post in the message

>center. I'd guess the

>number is less than ten

>and it feels more like

>four or five. Most escorts

>who used to post here

>choose not to anymore, although

>my suspicion is that many

>lurk.

>

>Escorts I know routinely ask not

>to be reviewed: they

>don't want notoriety and they

>don't want to be discussed

>in the message center.

>In most cases, these are

>guys with full-time jobs who

>escort part-time for fun and

>extra cash, who have more

>than enough clients, and who

>simply don't want to be

>part of a slash-and-burn.

>

>Hiring escorts is supposed to be

>about having fun. Sometimes

>it feels like we collectively

>take the process much too

>seriously here.

 

Hi -- BIG SMILE!

 

I'm an escort, and I do see merit to what you have said. I've been escorting for 1 1/2 years, and have always asked, any time a client mentioned sending a good review of me to Escort M4M Review, not to be reviewed. Why? Well, I own an International e-mail based support group for escorts, called Escorting Support, and belonged to another such group called Escort Male. Between the two groups there were approximately 600 memebers who were escorts. Through these interactions I've heard stories from escorts who have been hurt here.

 

In fact, I was recently inducted into the site, against my wishes, by a person who submitted a negative review of me. A person I never met, never agreed to meet, and never communicated with. Yet, the review process gives this stranger the right to create a handle for themself and submit a review about me, and say whatever he pleases. There is very little accountability about material that is published here concerning others, yet it does have a impact on the life and career of another person. Some of the reviews on this site are down right libelous. Suddenly, I am called upon to defend my good name against something that never happened. There is no way around it, that is a very hurtful situation. In some ways you even feel victimized by the site; and, honestly, in some situations people are.

 

Essentially, how I decided to handle it was to realize people can say a great many things about others. Fortunately, it does not make them true; and, more importantly, despite what anyone says about another person, we each have the opportunity to speak for ourselves. I decided to utilize my voice. I am a reasonable and mature person, who has love in my heart for all people. I am willing to be judged by my own words and views. For me the answer was to become a part of this forum in an open and honest way. Simply by being myself, I can become responsible for what others think of me. I have always been willing to live or die, with dignity, by my own words.

 

Sadly, I am not sure that all escorts who are hurt here have the skills to do that. Maybe they lack writing skills, or are very young and do not have the life experience to know very much about themselves, or lack maturity. That does not make them bad escorts, but it does reduce their ability to take what happens here and handle it with grace. Those are the people I worry about. There are real people, with real lives, who are good escorts that simply do not have the skills to deal with some of the negativity associated with the site, and then their reputations become tarnished because they reponded poorly to something someone else said about them that was not even true. It is always very uncomfortable when people say untrue things about someone or when someone is attacked. Heck, after extensive review of the Message Center, I can see examples of clents who could not hold up well under the pressure of that.

 

I am not saying I feel this site is a bad thing. I am saying that, yes, I agree, some people take things way too seriously here, and that tolerence, compassion and grace never go out of style.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Guest Esc_Tracker

Theron,

 

I think your error was in discouraging satisfied clients from posting here, hence your single negative review went unchallenged except for your rebuttal. Had your satisfied customers been posting reviews for the last few months, this bad one would not have stood out.

 

As for those escorts who claim they were harmed by bad reviews, I would invite you to search for their posts in the message board database and see if anything they had to say for themselves might have been the real reason their careers suffered.

 

Some rip-off artists have been slagged on this site so often it's a miracle they are still standing and have the gall to get out of bed in the morning. But insofar as we can tell from the continuing flow of complaints, they still seem to able to trawl effectively for suckers no matter what is said about them here. So I find it hard to believe good escorts haven't been able to overcome the odd bad review.

 

Esc-Tracker

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Guest regulation

>I don't pretend to know the

>whole truth here. But,

>I strongly suspect that there's

>more going on than we

>know. Was the tasteless

>note received by Regulation actually

>sent by Zack?

 

The note -- and another of much the same type -- appeared in my inbox on this website under the username "Zack Evans." My limited understanding of the workings of this site suggests that it was sent by the site member who has reserved that username. If you are suggesting that someone else has the ability to utilize the usernames of site members without their knowledge or permission, then I suppose that is something Hooboy should investigate. At a minimum, it would mean that ANY post in the message center may be from someone other than the purported poster. More than that I can't say, but if Hooboy would care to examine the messages in my inbox and verify their source he is perfectly welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.

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Guest albinorat

I have to start by saying I've never written a bad review. I've had some unsatisfactory experiences with some popular guys here but I've always been able to see their allure for others, and have seen they made a good effort, look like their pix and were responsible. I wouldn't "punish" someone just because "it didn't work out" with me.

 

That said, I have a hard time with escort defensiveness and hostility. Also with an unwillingness to be "reviewed".

 

I agree with Esc Tracker below that a number of downright offensive and clearly erratic (if not worse) escorts continue to get paid despite horrible reviews and worse comments here. I don't know how "well" escorts do or don't do. But I doubt very strongly this or any site is going to effect a determined escort's business very much or at all.

 

The escort/client pact is simple enough. Someone looking to get off and willing to pay contacts someone he thinks is his type who is willing to get paid.

 

Escorts generally define the circumstances (they kiss or don't, they suck or don't, they top or don't, they want a picture or at least an assurance the client is OK looking or they don't).

 

Escorts who are unwilling to define their limits, or don't know them should learn and may need a bad experience or three to realize that. Clients who don't know how to or are unwilling to ask for what they want may need a bad experience or three to realize that once contact is established and a meeting is possible they need to lay out their particular scenes ("I'm 80 and weigh 400 pounds, bathe once a week and want to top you for three hours after you've rimmed me, while you put on my dead wife's red wig and high heels and moan like a bitch").

 

No doubt some escorts could handle that, while others couldn't. No escort should be desperate or dishonest enough to say, "OK", then try to wiggle out (at least of the wig and the rim) when they arrive and still expect to be paid the full amount.

 

Most bad reviews I've seen have involved mis-communications. A few are by idiot clients. Some are fakes. But then, some of the great reviews are fakes, or are by idiot clients. And a percentage of all good to great reviews involve two people clicking for reasons that can never be entirely clear and certainly can't be codified. I think generally with other defenders of this site, such things sort themselves out eventually with no harm done.

 

Someone who gets seven reviews, only one or two of which are poor or even bad, will look good to people who find him their type. Someone with only one review will be more damaged if it's bad (whether it's accurate or not) and may not be helped all that much if it's good (whether it's accurate or not).

 

With esc. tracker I agree -- get reviewed if you're serious about escorting. A review establishes your bona fides -- your looks, reliability, personality and good will. It does not mean you will work out equally well for everyone who contacts you. And I think most readers here understand that.

 

If you get a patently false bad review it's better to answer it (without viciousness but simply suggesting it never happened) than to ignore it. If the bad review comes from a crank who misrepresented what he wanted or was abusive, again it's better to answer it like a business person ("OK, there are always two sides, here's mine...".) Ending the answer as some smart escorts do with an apology for any misunderstanding that the escort might have contributed to, is also a good thing and really negates the bad review.

 

As for part timers looking for easy money (especially on AOL) fine -- but why do they always charge "escort" prices? I continue to think an "escort" is different from a hustler because he makes an extra commitment to the client. He's experienced, able to handle different scenes and personalities and looks, and "in business" so he cares whether the client has a good time. That can justify the higher price spread, so to speak.

 

A part timer may or may not be a nice guy who is responsive, but basically he wants the money period. And most of those want as much for as little in return as possible. There will always be johns who are drawn to that and will take their risks. But if such an escort gets reviewed here by someone who found him hasty, resistant and unresponsive that goes with the terrain. And if the guy is truly an AOL hooker it probably won't matter in the least since his clientele is usually impulse driven (or not honest with himself about being a john) and is very unlikely to "research" someone on this site.

 

But I think it's better if that kind of hooker goes for $100 in NYC (remembering that some excellent escorts elsewhere charge "only" $150) rather than the $220 -- $250+ I see on AOL. I know I feel better if I've paid less for a lousy experience and don't have too much resentment of the hustler (I rebuke myself for my impulsiveness) than if I feel ripped off. In the first instance I feel rather ashamed and wouldn't broadcast it. In the second, I might.

 

To stay within this thread (not that anyone will have read this far) I don't understand Zack's attack on Regulation unless there's a conection between them we don't know. And I applaud N.N. being honest with us (and with Zack). All that Zack needed to take from that is, it would have been better to respond, "sorry I can't handle knowing a client is HIV+ thanks for telling me and for contacting me", then to drop it. Communications again.

 

Al

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Guest Zack Evans

I am NOT going anywhere people. I've just been really busy. But, after reading the latest posts about me and my credibility, I would like to reiterate that I would NEVER send hate mail to anyone and that I am not here to send out negative energy AT ALL.

 

Those who know me, know that I am a really positive, outgoing person and would never want to offend ANYone.

 

Lastly, but quickly, I would like to say that no matter how much flack and criticism I've gotten on here, I am here to continue on discussing issues, etc. Initially I came on here thinking it would be a good way to discuss issues and ideas with people who I could identify with in some way. So far, I've gotten some positive feedback from a lot of folk and some have even challenged me (which fascinates me incredibly). However, more than not I have been ridiculed, mocked and completely been put down in every way.

 

I see NO reason for ANYone to criticize or offend anyone. Life is too short and we should all focus on good energy, positive feedback and good discussion. Life is too short, and what a waste to look back on your life and see that it was full of negativity and judgements on others'.

 

Peace,

Zack Evans

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Guest Zack Evans

N.N.,

 

I am glad to see that you finally came out and explained the situation for those who cared to know. I, for one, cannot "knowingly" put myself into that situation because I would nervous the whole time and would NOT be able to provide a good service. The LAST thing I want to do is disappoint anyone and waste your time or my time for that matter.

 

I wish YOU luck as well. Take Care.

 

Zack Evans

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Guest Theron

Hi, Esc_Tracker :-)

 

Thank you for your response. You may very well be right, that I should have went ahead and allowed people who offered to submit good reviews in the past to have submitted them. However, my mind set about the site was different then than it is now. What can I say, opinions change --BIG SMILE.

 

At this point I am gald to be here. Oh, and yes, I am checking through the Message Center, as you suggested. I've been doing that for some time now, as I've been trying to learn more about this site.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron :-)

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Guest Theron

Hi, Regulation :-)

 

Oh, I was under the impression that the message was sent to a private e-mail account. Those types of messages can be easily forged. I do not know anything about how messages that are sent through the Message Center work, and how easily they can be forged. You are right, this is a question for HooBoy or Daddy In Training.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Guest Theron

Dear Al,

 

Gee, thanks for your reply. I did take the time to read the entire post --BIG SMILE. I can tell you invested some time preparing it, and I really appreciate it. I am well connected to other escorts through an International e-mail baised discussion group, and am looking forward to learning more about the views of people who hire escorts in the message center.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Guest regulation

>To stay within this thread (not

>that anyone will have read

>this far) I don't understand

>Zack's attack on Regulation unless

>there's a conection between them

>we don't know.

 

 

For the record, I have never had any communication with that particular hooker other than in the messages I have posted in this message center. You know just as much about the situation as I do.

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Hi Al -

 

Just wanted to respond to a couple of points:

 

("I'm 80 and weigh

>400 pounds, bathe once a

>week and want to top

>you for three hours after

>you've rimmed me, while you

>put on my dead wife's

>red wig and high heels

>and moan like a bitch").

>

 

OK, so this isn't what I wanted to respond to... other than to say you do know how to paint a picture...

 

>With esc. tracker I agree --

>get reviewed if you're serious

>about escorting. A review establishes

>your bona fides -- your

>looks, reliability, personality and good

>will. It does not mean

>you will work out equally

>well for everyone who contacts

>you. And I think most

>readers here understand that.

>

>

 

You're a very smart guy and I do enjoy your posts. But I think you might be overlooking a certain type of escort. There are a fair number of guys who escort on a very part-time basis, who have all the clients they want. They don't want more, they don't advertise, etc. (I'm thinking of three guys I know, all of whom no longer advertise as an escort because none of them take on new clients. And all of whom I met through AOL while they still were advertising.)

 

>

>As for part timers looking for

>easy money (especially on AOL)

>fine -- but why do

>they always charge "escort" prices?

>I continue to think an

>"escort" is different from a

>hustler because he makes an

>extra commitment to the client.

>He's experienced, able to handle

>different scenes and personalities and

>looks, and "in business" so

>he cares whether the client

>has a good time. That

>can justify the higher price

>spread, so to speak.

>

>A part timer may or may

>not be a nice guy

>who is responsive, but basically

>he wants the money period.

>And most of those want

>as much for as little

>in return as possible. There

>will always be johns who

>are drawn to that and

>will take their risks.

 

I think of you as a very sensitive, intuitive guy. I'm kind of surprised that you would use a term like 'AOL hooker', especially in such a pejorative manner. AOL is simply a communications medium. I know it's very popular here at M4M to make fun of it and put it down and dismiss the people on it. But it happens to be true that something like 20% of Americans who are online are online through AOL. Generalizing about people who use AOL is going to lead to some pretty suspicious conclusions, at least in my opinion.

 

I've met some really great guys through AOL, both escorts and new friends in cities that I travel to. I've found I far prefer the kind of part-time escort who has another job/career that he likes and finds challenging, who shares some of the same interests I do, and who is escorting because he finds it fun and likes the extra money.

 

In my times, I've hired lots of different kinds of escorts, full-time and part-time. And I've found the part-time guys to often be more prepared, fresher, and more interesting than someone who is trying to fit in five appts in one day or one evening. Basically, these are young guys who I would feel perfectly comfortable having in my home or introducing to friends or even colleagues.

 

It's ironic, I guess, that I find myself describing them that way, since I'm on record here saying that I tend to hire escorts much more for fun than for emotional support and/or intensity.

 

I'm not looking for an escort to be a future boyfriend; I'm not looking for an escort to fill some major emotional role in my life. Instead, I'm usually looking to get together with someone in whatever city to have some fun. And I really like it most when that can be with someone who is much like the other people in my life, only probably younger. And, in some cases, these are guys I will most likely remain in touch with long after they stop escorting.

 

I think it's not accurate or fair to dismiss these guys as unprofessional or say they "only want the money", at least as far as it goes. Surely all escorts "only want the money" at some level -- after all, that's usually why they are escorting. But it's been my observation that part-timers are often much more able to bring a fresh perspective and fresh energy to a get-together than guys who are escorting every day. I'm guilty of generalizing now and of course there exceptions to every rule.

 

But dismissing someone who is escorting on a part-time basis and using AOL as a marketing tool as likely wanting as much as possible for a little as possible in return is not really being fair to a lot of pretty cool guys.

 

And to then dismiss clients who hire part-timers (especially part-timers on the dreaded AOL) by saying "there will always be johns who are drawn to that and will take their risks" is a little offensive.

 

 

>But

>if such an escort gets

>reviewed here by someone who

>found him hasty, resistant and

>unresponsive that goes with the

>terrain. And if the guy

>is truly an AOL hooker

>it probably won't matter in

>the least since his clientele

>is usually impulse driven (or

>not honest with himself about

>being a john) and is

>very unlikely to "research" someone

>on this site.

>

 

Again, I have to say I found the above paragraph pretty offensive. And I'm surprised to see it written by you, because I think you're a pretty sensitive, level-headed guy.

 

I like this site, most especially the Message Center. But I simply cannot agree with your implication that "researching" an escort on this site is a method of determining whether or not to hire an escort that is superior to other methods, including the use of AOL to establish a dialog. I've hired a lot of escorts and I am seldom disappointed -- not because I am not discriminating but because I seem to be able to find guys who are able to make me happy, which is of course the whole point. But I make my determination based on direct contact with the escort rather than depending upon what I view as extremely questionable reviews posted on the other side of this site.

 

>But I think it's better if

>that kind of hooker goes

>for $100 in NYC (remembering

>that some excellent escorts elsewhere

>charge "only" $150) rather than

>the $220 -- $250+ I

>see on AOL. I know

>I feel better if I've

>paid less for a lousy

>experience and don't have too

>much resentment of the hustler

>(I rebuke myself for my

>impulsiveness) than if I feel

>ripped off. In the first

>instance I feel rather ashamed

>and wouldn't broadcast it. In

>the second, I might.

 

I truly am sorry if you've had bad experiences with guys you've hired, whether you found them on AOL or elsewhere. But my experience has been different and I felt I needed to stick up for some of the part-timers out there rather than let them be so casually dismissed as all being poor escorts with little concern for the services they offer.

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Guest albinorat

Boston Guy, thanks for reading the whole thing (the migraine should be gone soon as for the nausea...!)

 

I appreciate your points but I probably came on too strong.

 

I have no problem in general with AOL sex sellers (I'm a buyer, myself) only that in NYC they are a variable and expensive lot who don't invariably deliver, given what they charge.

 

But forewarned is forearmed and there are great guys there.

 

I've hired for thirty years, since I was a teenager (could that be 31 or 32 years? Yikes!!!) and have met great people who are for hire. I've met them in train stations, on the street, in bars, by chance on trains, through services, and of course on the phone and more recently through the 'Net.

 

Since I like twinks, I've enjoyed plenty of young(ish) guys who figured doing this meant earning more than bagging at the local K-Mart while they got through college. Since I like butch, I've adored plenty of "working" guys who were not full members of whatever union and wanted to suppliment their wages. I've had great experiences with youngish ex-cons who were married with kids but couldn't get well paying jobs while still on probation (some of the hottest most reciprocal sex came from these guys). And of course I've gotten off with (and gotten off) the usual guys who hung around the bars and streets in New York.

 

So I have no problem with motives. That someone is available, my type, honest and fun is what I'm interested in. I don't judge anyone, since I pay, how could I enjoy it if I looked down on those who sold? Some guys "society" wouldn't approve of were both hot sex and very nice people.

 

I guess my main point, buried under too much verbiage, is one I re-run like a broken record. The 'Net has given rise to the "escort" who always charges more (at least in NYC) then "hustlers" once did. In NYC there is only one bar -- Stella's -- more of an amusement ride than a place to score (for me). And there's only one street area (around Stella's up to Port Authority) which on a given night might or might not be safe. "Escort's" then, don't have the kind of competition they would have had in 1980 or even in 1990 and that has escalated everyone's price.

 

I keep saying that I justify the escort's price by expecting he will be more serious, more into it and more consistent and business like than the guy doing it for fun or some occasional extra cash. In my experience that kind of guy's 'tude is 'you get what you get'.

 

That's often the attitude on AOL (which doesn't mean some guys with that attitude aren't really hot and great sex). But the price is "escort" price. I'm happier taking a chance on someone who wants $100 than someone who wants $300 unless the person has some kind of track record as a "good bet". For the most part and excepting those guys who get reviewed here but also have a presence on AOL, the guys there don't have those track records (though some have tracks and others have records and a few have both). Now of course you can negotiate someone down. But if someone starts by asking $300, they're going to "settle" for a higher price than if they simply asked $100 and maybe added on $20 or so for additional activities.

 

I might be full of shit but that was my point. I will still be trolling AOL. But I think the escorts who know about this site and care, need to realize that expectations may be higher, just as their prices are high. They often are not part timers or 'once in and while around Christmas' trade but "pros" -- even if they have other occupations and pasttimes.

 

But all your points are well taken and I appreciate your taking the time to make them.

 

Al

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Hi Al -

 

I understand now -- thanks.

 

I think you are right that escort prices have zoomed because of the Internet. In fact, I think this site alone has had quite an impact on prices. When guys here post things that say "I'll pay any price for ... " or write reviews saying they paid $500 for an hour, every escort who is monitoring this site has to immediately start thinking "Hmmmm... perhaps I should raise my prices." And I this site has contributed to rising prices everywhere, not just in large cities.

 

That's why, on a number of different occasions, I've posted my policy of not paying more than $200 per hour. I simply won't do it and I've had guys who wanted $300 or more immediately come down to $200, with no haggling at all, when I said "sorry, my policy is to pay no more than $200 per hour." And I've never had an escort who did so then turn around and treat me badly or otherwise be a jerk. $200 per hour is a rate of pay much higher than most Americans will ever earn and most escorts have to know that it's great pay. At least the guys I want to spend time with aren't going to be thinking "Oh, he's only paying me $200 per hour -- jeez, what a jerk!"

 

Perhaps some of this relates to the "Whammers" vs. "Charmers" concept that was just reactivated in another thread. When I hire an escort, I'm looking to have fun. I'm not looking for a boyfriend, I'm not looking for a knight on a white horse, I'm not looking for someone to convince me I'm still desirable and I'm looking to rekindle my lost youth. I'm just looking to have some fun. If a young guy who is escorting thinks $200 per hour is too little to be paid for that, then that's okay with me: he can go find a client who wants to pay more than $200 and I'll go read a book and we'll both be happy.

 

I don't NEED to hire escorts; I only do so because it's fun. If more guys started saying to escorts "Sorry, I won't pay you more per hour than my lawyer, so $200 per hour is it.", prices would come back down from the stratosphere.

 

Guys who are looking for much more from an escort than I am, who are really looking for a date with the escort -- which I see as being every bit as legitimate as what I do -- may be willing to pay more. But even there I think that it's sort of silly for someone to pay $300 for something they could get for $200 -- kind of like paying $4.00 for a loaf of bread.

 

I generally really like the escorts I encounter. And I think many of them are smart businessmen, who effectively play on clients' emotions to increase the price. For someone to say "you cannot question my price because to do so is to question my value" seems really very funny to me, perhaps because I am used to negotiation at much higher levels for all kinds of business services. And that's what we're talking about here -- paying a price for a business service.

 

Questioning the price an escort charges for a particular service isn't questioning the worth of that person at all. It's simply questioning whether the particular service they are offering is worth the price they are asking and it's no different than what is done all day long every day in businesses around the world.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the service being offered is a personal service matters not one iota. I might think a particular escort is a great guy, a wonderful person and a really sexy man. But he might well be charging a price that makes the service he is offering uninteresting to me. That doesn't mean I think less of him, just that the service isn't valuable enough to justify the asking price.

 

Sometimes I think that escorts and clients alike need to get a booster shot of self-confidence before engaging in these transactions. Some guys really need to have more faith in what they themselves are bringing to the table.

 

But it seems as if there are a fair number of clients who approach hiring an escort with such worry and trepidation, that they don't want to risk upsetting the escort at all even by something as simple as questioning the price. I only wish my clients would view me in the same way.

 

Sorry -- I didn't realize when I started this that I was going off on one of my tirades! :O

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Guest Tampa Yankee

Boston Guy,

 

I too have a policy of a $200/hr upper limit on fees that I bent only once, involving a threeway in the Big Apple with two well-known escorts. Easy justification in that particular circumstance. The third guy was specifically desired and brought in for an hourly as a special occasion, that and the issue of a 3-way encounter.

 

We do differ on the principle of 'negotiating' though, although I must say that you present the most rational and reasonable discussion for it that I recall seeing... you almost have me convinced. :-)

 

However, I'm not a negotiator by personality... when I buy a new car I do my research, bring in the facts and figures, set my own target price including a small delta for 'negotiating' room, let them know what I know about the real price info and what I'm willing to pay. Within those parameters we either pull the trigger after a short mating ritual or I walk.

 

I just don't see my style applying to the escort issue. I also, don't see the escorts attitude being improved by the process. On the other hand the recent down turn in the economy may mitigate some negative reactions to the practice. I have had a Florda escort confide in me that prices are dropping in his area though the drop is not necessarily being advertised openly.

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Guest Theron

Hi :-)

 

These past two posts concerning he negotiation of prices are interesting. Despite an earlier post I made, pointing out that an escort who made 100.00 an hour 20 years ago and received a 6% annual increace would be approximately 302.40 in todays market, my hourly fee is 200.00.

 

I do not know what percent of escorts actually are willing to negotiate their fees. I know many on the Internation e-mail discussion group say that they will not, but I have often wondered if they do. I can say, for myself, I have given careful consideration in setting my hourly fee, and it is above some, but below many. One thing is certain about me, though --I will absolutely not negotiate my rate. Maybe it is a bad business practice, but for myself I am willing to lose a client who wants to bring my hourly rate down below 200.00.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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Guest Theron

>I guess my main point, buried

>under too much verbiage, is

>one I re-run like a

>broken record. The 'Net has

>given rise to the "escort"

>who always charges more (at

>least in NYC) then "hustlers"

>once did. In NYC there

>is only one bar --

>Stella's -- more of an

>amusement ride than a place

>to score (for me). And

>there's only one street area

>(around Stella's up to Port

>Authority) which on a given

>night might or might not

>be safe. "Escort's" then, don't

>have the kind of competition

>they would have had in

>1980 or even in 1990

>and that has escalated everyone's

>price.

 

Hi :-)

 

What about inflation and the rising costs of living? As a consumer I think we would all have to agree, nothing is even remotely close in price to what is was ten or twenty years ago. In fact, a hooker who was making 100.00 twenty years ago who receved a 6% annual increase would be making approximately 302.40, today.

 

Hugs,

 

Theron

Based Out of Chicago

http://theronb.homestead.com/files/home.html

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