Ultimate Belief

[Guest Konga]

>Chaos doesn't "govern," of course, that's

>a contradiction in terms.

 

A turn of phrase whose ironic contradiction drives home the point.

Style counts (and might keep you sane) in the face of chaos.

[Guest MrMan]

When this discussion started on the other thread Rod posted; I

had an idea where it would more than likely end up and so it has.

Will feels that the discussion has "degenerated" to Catholic

bashing, maybe so, but so what. I believe that someone who is

truly secure in their beliefs feels no need to defend their

beliefs or to try to get someone else to "understand" them.

 

I don't believe human beings are "hard-wired" to be religious. I

believe we are hard-wired to be spiritual. There's a big difference between the two. Most people who are religious are not spiritual. Many people cling to there belief systems like

a life preserver, but in reality they are clinging to an anchor.

An anchor that keeps their spirit from soaring as it yearns to do. I believe most people don't really think about their

existence all that much. They check their brains at the door of

their religious institutions and allow someone else to determine

how they interpret themselves and the world around them.

 

Working as a professional full-time escort for the past ten years

has benefitted me greatly in several ways. But for me the most

important benefit is the Time I've had to simply think. Who am I,

Why am I here, What is God, What's it all about...I've had more

time than most people to think about these things with very little distraction. I've been single since '88, so no boyfriend

to distract me. I have the freedom to think about whatever I want

all day long. Kind of like a monk who gets out once and a while.

I spend more than 90% of my life by myself. Most people don't

have the opportunity or the inclination to really devote this

much of their life to connect with their eternal spirit. I believe that we are Spiritual Beings having a human experience.

God has never stopped speaking to us..we just stopped listening.

Our human egos became increasingly arrogant, believing we could

intellectualize God.

 

I do believe that there is Truth in all the world's religions,

but I DON'T believe any one religion has a lock on the Truth.

The Truth that will transform your life and nourish your spirit

comes from within you and from no external source. God has not

called us into this world to worship the concepts of humans, but

to awaken within us the living spirit of love to express that

spirit in all we do. It is not possible to know the reality of

God through another's experience.

 

In this, as in all prior historical ages, the worship of false

gods is prevalent. Many demoninations are entirely concept-

oriented, dogmatic institutions that worship the understanding of

the human mind, interpretations of founders or current leaders.

Many of the founders of various Christian denominations were

sincere and insightful people through whom God's spirit was active. But to the degree that you lock yourself into a structure

of THEIR understanding, then God had failed in his work through

you.

 

When your spiritual life is oriented around theology, you worship

Human Understanding--the same deity one represented as a golden

calf in the wilderness of Sinai. Those who worship human convictions instead of God would do better to fashion their

deities in physical form. They would then see what they do.

 

I believe we should look for the truth behind every ritual, every

culture, every ceremony, every celebration we encounter. Enjoy the rich diversity of Truth's multiple expressions. Be grateful when the words of others remind you of the truth you may have

forgotten. Be grateful for those who help you discover ways of

expressing what you know--new phrases, new terms perhaps--but do

not use secondhand expression. Express only what you know. Speak

only from your own experience & you will always speak the Truth.

[Guest regulation]

>

>>

>As reluctant as I am to

>get back into this discussion....

>

 

Considering your behavior in the "Tell Mom and Dad" thread I can understand why you're reluctant. I'm glad to see you over here with the grownups. Please try to act like you belong.

 

 

>Reg, what I have found is

>troubling for folks of deep

>faith, is that they believe

>teachings have a divine source,

>but at the same time

>they recognize that they are

>being taught, interpreted and translated

>by human institutions, the Churches.

> What troubles folks of

>deep faith is the fear

>that the human institution is

>not properly interpreting the meaning

>of the divine source.

>That is why folks can

>be deeply faithful, and beleive

>in ther God, but have

>problems with the institutions which

>are supposed to represent the

>divine. God is divine,

>but maybe some parts of

>the human institutions are not.

 

It seems to me all you're saying is that there are some people who simply don't believe what the Church (or a church) teaches. The Roman Church claims that Jesus appointed Peter to act as his representative on earth, and that Peter's successors, the popes, and the priests they appoint therefore are the sole legitimate mediators between the human race and the Kingdom of God. Only through their intervention can humans deal with God on certain crucial issues such as confession and absolution, baptism, marriage -- in other words, the sacraments. If you believe that, then you pretty much have to accept the authority of these guys on matters of faith. Though they're human, they've been appointed (ordained) by someone who has the direct authority of God in such matters. Either you believe that or you don't.

 

In Protestant denominations, if I'm not mistaken, the clergy are people who claim to have experienced a "call" or divine impulse to preach the Word of God.

 

In either case, if you believe what your church is telling you about its clergy then you ought to be satisfied that what the clergy say comes from God. If not, why be a member at all? If religion doesn't connect you with the divine, why bother?

 

 

 

> That is why a

>person of faith will take

>direction from his church, but

>ultimatley must searh for himself

>to find what is really

>divine. Its not easy,

>which is why I beleive

>that folks of deep faith

>are often troubled by situations

>in the world that pose

>problems not even considered when

>the supposed sources of divine

>wisdom were written. What

>would Jesus say about condoms?

> The Church's position is

>but one human interpretation.

 

As I said above, the Church claims that it has the right to speak for God on matters of faith. Jesus said, we are told, that Peter was to have the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and that his decisions on earth would be honored in heaven. When you make an Act of Contrition and the priest says "I absolve you in the name of the Father, etc.," he isn't just being polite, he's exercising the authority Jesus gave to Peter. He's saying that the sins you've just confessed, to the extent your repentance is sincere, have now been forgiven by God. If you don't believe that, why be a member? If your church doesn't offer you a connection to the divine then what does it offer, bingo nights?

[Will]

It would not surprise me to learn that I was the only one who thought that yesterday's post really would be my last contribution to this thread. Never say Never say they.

 

Some random observations in response to Al, Reg, PR, and Mr. Man, in no particular order of importance:

 

1. If my perception of the Roman Catholic Church were the same as what I take to be the majority view expressed here, I would have nothing whatsoever to do with it. I might even regard it as anti-human, if not downright evil.

 

2. Al is absolutely correct in saying that my notion of things puts me in a tiny minority and that most of the people empowered to declare what is and is not an official statement would not only disagree with me but might even cast me out.

 

3. Al and Mr. Man are also correct in pointing out that I was feeling defensive even though I denied that I was. Having slept on it, I see that I was indeed feeling beleaguered on all sides, because Al is 100% on target when he points to the fact that many authorities would regard me as a renegade.

 

4. Why not "Catholic bashing?" Well, I don't like bashing because I don't think it's a reasonable discourse where matters of great human importance are concerned. I don't like Hindu-bashing or Islam-bashing or Jewish-bashing, either. It's my sense that bashing other people's values does a lot of harm and I'm not clear what the creative payoff is.

 

5. I don't think there's any significant distance between my view that people are hard-wired to be "religious" and the view that people are hard-wired to be "spiritual." It's just that the minute people begin to put a form of communication on their spiritual insights -- say, in a dance, or a poem, or a statue, or an idea -- I call that "religion." But that's just a semantic convenience as far as I'm concerned and I don't mean anything weightier than that by the term.

 

6. I think that the biggest "Wow" of all -- the essential mystery -- is love in all its shapes, sizes, and colors. That's where sex and children intersect with spirituality, as far as I can tell.

 

7. Finally, I think I would ally myself with a public Catholic intellectual like Garry Wills, whose most recent book is titled PAPAL SIN. I don't mind being in the tiny, fractional minority when I'm in company with the likes of him.

[Guest jeffOH]

Not to confuse anyone, I thought I'd changed my handle to

reflect to my escort name, but my most recent post came up as MrMan?

 

Anyway, thanks Will for admitting that you were feeling a bit

defensive and beleagured...which was most likely the cause of

your headache. I used to get similar headaches during passionate

discussions about religion and God, until I realized that the

source of my anger and frustration were the doubts I had about

my own beliefs. I thought if I could find just the right combination of words that I could get these thick-headed heathens

or fanatics to see it my way. Thus validating my beliefs and

allowing me to feel that I was on the right path.

 

I'm at a point now on my spiritual journey where I don't care

if one person or a million agree with what I believe. I don't

believe God can be found only in a stagnant book of religion or

in a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or wherever. I believe

God is everywhere and in everything and that NO place is more

sacred or holy than another.

 

I see God in the trees, in the flowers, in a rainbow, in the

eyes of a loved one and for that matter in all human beings.

I believe the TRUTH OF GOD is LOVE. I didn't feel much LOVE in

most of the postings on this thread and it made me feel very sad.

I don't believe you can begin to experience the reality of God in

your life until you start living in the truth. The truth of who

you really are...stop living in fear, fear of being judged or

rejected by so-called "loved ones" simply for being yourself.

 

"As we become transparent, revealed for exactly who we are and not who we wish to be, then the mystery of human life as a whole

glistens momentarily in a flash of incarnation. Spirituality

emanates from the ordinariness of this human life made transparent by lifelong tending to its nature and fate."

 

"The path of the soul will not allow concealment of the shadow

without unfortunate consequences. You don't achieve the goal of

the philosophers' stone, the lapis lazuli at the core of your

heart, without allowing all of human passion into the fray. It

takes a lot of material, alchemically, to produce the refinement

of the peacock's tail or the treasured gold--other images of the

goal. But if you can tolerate the full weight of human possibility as the raw material for an alchemical soulful life,

then at the end of the path you may have a vision within yourself

of the lapis and sense the stone idols of Easter Island standing

nobly within your soul and the dolmen of Stonehenge marking eons

of time in your own lifespan. Then your soul, cared for in

courage, will be so solid, so weathered and mysterious, that

divinity will emanate from your very being. You will have the

spiritual radiance of the holy fool who has dared to live life

as it presents itself and to unfold personality with its heavy

yet creative dose of imperfection." from "Care of the Soul" by

Thomas Moore

 

JEFF/COLUMBUS OHIO/JEFF4hire@aol.com

[bluenix]

Nope. It's irony that will keep you sane. Style just keeps you poor.

[Guest Konga]

>Style just keeps you poor.

 

Well sure, if you're going to dress like the pope without the aid of a Vatican bankroll.