Kicking a Dead Horse's Butt

[Rod Hagen]

I posted this in a response to Billy H's post on the Muscle Service site. Agree, disagree?

 

"Re: Hustlers VS. Escorts ( What's the Difference ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Up until the late 80s modern men refered to what we do as hustling, and to us as Hustlers. It wasn't an insult, it was just the term. The methods were different (sidewalks and magazine ads as opposed to the internet and Ritz Carlton hotels) but the results were the same (hustlers fucked the hell out of men who paid them, just like escorts do today). Escorting is just another euphamism. We do not "Escort" any more than they "Hustled" so neither is correct nor incorrect, insulting nor complimentary. Clear? Using the term "Hustling" is just a throwback to a bygone era. Should that hurt your feelings? Well, would you be insulted if someone called you "foxy" instead of "sexy"? "

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[Guest WetDream]

Words and their associations are in a constant state of flux. It seems to me that how one responds to those words is largely generational. There is a big flap going on in the Bay Area Reporter (San Francisco) about ads complaining about the use of the word "queer" to describe homosexuals proudly in terms of the new Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transexual/whateversexual Center under construction here. And I'm still confused about Blacks vs African-Americans. Dicks aren't the only things with loads!

[Guest Jason Reardone]

http://www.JasonReardone.cjb.net

 

I must admit I like that response!! Although the issue of word play typically used for marketing gain often times societal changes impose a negative hue on particularly less "popular" ideas. I don't think it's anything new of course but it's nice to hear a well thought out response and certainly to a often trivialized concept.

 

(Okay, Okay, I'll put my thesaurus away, LOL)

 

-jason

[Justice]

LAST EDITED ON May-08-01 AT 09:47PM (EST)[p]Hey Rod!

 

First, interesting screen name on Ace's site! (What no LeanDream?! ;-))

 

Second, your post pretty much covers it!

[Guest blankman]

BTW, I just wondered, speaking of words and their ever-changing meanings, did you (Rod) pick the name HAGEN after the character from the Nibelungenlied who kills Siegfried and is later killed by Kriemhild? Or was it after the ice cream (yum!)

 

(I think the Rod part is self-explanatory)

[BewareofNick]

>BTW, I just wondered, speaking of

>words and their ever-changing meanings,

>did you (Rod) pick the

>name HAGEN after the character

>from the Nibelungenlied who kills

>Siegfried and is later killed

>by Kriemhild?

 

 

All right, wait a minute, I'm confused. Who killed Siegfried? Does Roy know about this????

[Guest blankman]

I don't think "Roy" appears in Wagner, BofN.

 

Help!

[Guest WetDream]

Don't you think that Roy is kind of a Loge-like character? A mgician that keeps the plot moving along...

[Guest blankman]

What I want to know is where Siegfried has hidden his hoard of gold after all those ticket sales at the Mirage.

 

But since Hagen has killed him, we shall never know...

[Rod Hagen]

LAST EDITED ON May-09-01 AT 05:10PM (EST)[p]How/Why I chose my name is a boring, slightly personal story. Maybe I'll share it here someday. If someone else I've shared it with on this board wants to relate it, no problem.

 

I saw S&R perform in LasVegas last July. They both looked very unhealthy and extremely unhappy. It was quite a depressing experience.

 

-Hagen

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[Justice]

LAST EDITED ON May-09-01 AT 10:58PM (EST)[p]Speaking of names ... someone on Ace's site want to know if you're an escort and where you're located ... should I tell him or do you want to keep him guessing? ;-) }>

[Guest blankman]

Hagen, sorry to hear that about S&R, and allow me to apologize if this joke was at all offensive to you.

[Rod Hagen]

>Hagen, sorry to hear that about

>S&R, and allow me to

>apologize if this joke was

>at all offensive to you.

No offense taken whatsoever. Rod was/is the brother of my good childhood friend Kelly Hagen.

 

2 years ago when I was considering becoming an esort I bounced a few names off Matt Adams via Instant Messages. He liked 'Rod Hagen' and so did I. My regret came the first time someone called me "Rod" while we were in bed. Can you say CHEESE? Yuck. So I sign most things "Hagen" because "Rod" is too corney. But of course it would be silly to change it at this stage of the game.

 

And that's the boring story.

 

Justice, I can't get back into the MuscleService group tonight. EZ board is giving me problems. I know the password, and I am registered, but it keeps asking me to (re-)register. I'll get back to it in the morning. Until then they can keep guessing.

 

-Hagen

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[Justice]

LAST EDITED ON May-10-01 AT 05:22PM (EST)[p]>Justice, I can't get back into

>the MuscleService group tonight.

>EZ board is giving me

>problems. I know the

>password, and I am registered,

>but it keeps asking me

>to (re-)register. I'll get

>back to it in the

>morning. Until then they

>can keep guessing.

 

Ugh! I've had the same problem -- a couple of times. I've discovered that it's best NOT to log out once you've accessed the site. I haven't had a problem since then.

[Guest EvilSwine]

Rod-

 

After seeing closeups of Siegfried and Roy, I've often thought "How sad. They seem to use the same plastic surgeon and makeup artist as Liberace.".

[Guest Midight Cowboy]

I didn't see Billy's post (and am too lazy to go search for it), but I agree with your points to a point - namely, that the terms are euphemisms for the same thing (prostitution), neither being more or less "correct" than the other. But insults and compliments are often a matter of contexts, those of what is spoken or written and those of the people communicating. I read your meaning as "these terms are completely interchangeable," and that I disagree with. Each has the connotations of different eras you spell out in your post, among other shades of meaning. "Hustling" can be meant and taken as benignly as you suggest, but don't you think it can be meant or taken as an insult under certain circumstances? (The phrase "two-bit escort" doesn't quite roll off the tongue. )

 

This reminds me of the old "pornography" vs. "erotica" debate. But more pertinent might be the change from "stewardess" to "flight attendant". Stewardesses were the butt of so many jokes that the term became associated with sex and stupidity. (Stewards were few and far between, so male hairdressers were the butt of those other jokes.) Then the airlines, encouraged by feminists, made a switch to the genderless "flight attendant." As it caught on, stewardess jokes began their slow steady decline (not that they've disappeared) and males began joining the ranks in steadily increasing numbers (and stealing the spotlight from hairdressers). Of course, a lot of factors contributed to the changes in attitudes and the changes in the profession, including the growth of the airlines and Karen Black's landmark performance in "Airport '75." But the name change made it a lot easier to supplant some of those old associations.

 

One term is insulting and another is appropriate not because, as you point out, one is more correct than the other, but because of shared interpretations of what someone means by it. Hence, a white Redneck southern good ol' boy's use of the term "nigger" would likely be perceived as racial slur, while an inner city black teen's use of it probably wouldn't. Under you're scenario, if I'm reading it correctly, there would be no difference.

 

Michael

[Bilbo]

I have read that the name change from Prunes to Dried Plums didn't work out, however, and that there is now an association paying plum growers to destroy the trees in their orchards, to ease their switch into growing something else.

[Rod Hagen]

>you're scenario, if I'm reading

>it correctly, there would be

>no difference.

 

Don't put words in people's mouths. I didn't mention the words Nigger or Stewardess. Those are TOTALLY separate issues. Start a new thread. THANKS.

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[BewareofNick]

>LAST EDITED ON May-09-01

>AT 10:58 PM (EST)

>

>Speaking of names ... someone on Ace's site want to know if you're an escort and where you're located ... should I tell him or do you want to keep him guessing? ;-) }>

 

 

Justice, were you referring to me? I received an e-mail today inquiring about my availability.

[Justice]

>Justice, were you referring to me?

> I received an e-mail

>today inquiring about my availability.

 

LOL! Thanks for a good laugh, Nick. (Rod's got everyone at Ace's site panting and wondering who he is. I keep wanting to post something to the effect of "I know something you don't know!" }>)

[Guest Midight Cowboy]

>Don't put words in people's mouths.

> I didn't mention the

>words Nigger or Stewardess.

>Those are TOTALLY separate issues.

> Start a new thread.

> THANKS.

 

I wasn't. I used the stewardess vs flight attentant thing as an analogy, like you did with "foxy" vs "sexy" in your post. I don't think your analogy works - it's too simplistic, it compares adjectives to nouns, and it uses two compliments to refute the contention that one of the original terms is an insult; meanwhile, you're maintaining all along that the original terms are both neutral. So I came up with an analogy I think is more appropriate for the contention - two nouns, both names for the same profession, one of which was widely perceived as having negative connotations - to illustrate how the contention could hold up.

 

That's a standard method of reasoning out a flaw in the logical progression of an argument. You need to explain to me why my analogy doesn't work, not simply state that is doesn't work. The "nigger" example was a way of illustrating *my* point that context matters, which is what I think your argument ignores. I used it so you could see very clearly how I interpreted your meaning. If you explain how I'm misunderstanding you, then it no longer works as an example.

 

Putting words into people's mouths is something else altogether. So is making an effort take something seriously.

 

Michael

[Rod Hagen]

>I wasn't. I used the stewardess

>vs flight attentant thing as

>an analogy, like you did

>with "foxy" vs "sexy"

 

Foxy vs sexy wont get anyone in trouble.

 

The words you chose could get me in LOTS of trouble. Be more careful when you use examples or illustrators to clarify your point when in the context of refuting somebody else's.

 

And since you think my link has less oomph because one set I use consists of adjectives and the other nouns (a problem I don't see, but I'm not writing for myself of course), how about "A Fox" Vs. "A Hottie"? Now all we are dealing with is Nouns and there are no messy adjectives to distract you. Better?

 

Hagen

 

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[Guest Midight Cowboy]

I don't understand how anything I write in this thread could get you in trouble. In any case, that's certainly not my intention.

 

Take "queer." I don't like the word, I find it mildly offensive and use it only when necessary: "Queer Nation," "queer theory," "Queer As Folk." That's what they're called, and I can't exactly go around calling it "Gay As Folk" if I expect people to understand me. Lots of people feel the same way. Lots of others have embraced it. Over the past decade, I'd say 90% of the people who've used it as a descriptive term for gays in my presence have been gay activists.

 

I wouldn't tell anyone he's wrong for using the word, because it's not incorrect. Nor would I accept anyone telling me I'm wrong for finding it offensive. It has associations I don't care for - "odd," "strange," "not quite right." There's no rule that says because some people use it, the rest of us have to like it.

 

But, as I understand your post, you're telling someone he's wrong for taking offense at the usage of "hustling" and "hustler." And, as I understand your post, you're claiming the reason he's wrong is because both "hustler" and "escort" refer to the same thing. So do "queer" and "gay," so do "stewardess" and "flight attendant" (the former is feminine and the latter is neuter, but it's the same job). If you'd written, "this is why I don't find it offensive..." and offered you're reasoning, I'd have thought you very broadminded and accepting. But that's not what you wrote.

 

So, I ask again (see my first post, paragraph 1): "...don't you think it can be meant or taken as an insult under certain circumstances?" If you keep dodging the question, I might start to think you're just being "foxy" (as in "sly," "slippery," "evasive"), which doesn't necessarily have much to do with being "sexy" (except, of course, under the right circumstances.)

 

Michael

[Rod Hagen]

>I don't understand how anything I

>write in this thread could

>get you in trouble. In

>any case, that's certainly not

>my intention.

I did over react

>written, "this is why I

>don't find it offensive..." and

>offered you're reasoning, I'd have

I did offer my reasoning: historical context. Hence "foxy", 70s, and "a hottie" 90s/today; "hustler" 60s 70s and 80s, "escort" 90s and today. See?

Michael, I of course understand the utility of analogies, but the best analogies resemble what they are analogous to. It's easy to see a link between "sexy" and "hustler" because they are both, in this forum, sexual terms. But when you used "nigger" to further debunk "Hustler" it read to me that you were going off on a tangent more than you were using an anology or clarifier. No problem really, you used an anology, to my mind, incorrectly-so what-but your last sentences brought it around to me in a near 'challenge', as if to say "HAGEN thinks that "hustler" isn't insulting so therefore he must not think Nigger is either!" All I can say is "WHAT!? WHAT!? WHAT!?" You extended my argument quite recklessly and so...you pissed me off. I'm over it, but I sill think your analogies were too far from the original to be useful :-)

 

http://www.rodhagen.com

[Justice]

>I'll get

>back to it in the

>morning. Until then they

>can keep guessing.

 

Hey Rod,

 

You're too much. :7 I see that you stopped toying with the guys Ace's site and that you've finally identified yourself. ;-) All the speculation about you was great fun. ;-) Naughty, naughty! (You need to be spanked! ;-))

 

Justice

 

P.S. You have no idea how hard it was for me NOT to spill the beans!