English Language Exclusivity

[+ José Soplanucas]

On the same spirit of updating the M4M forums to contemporary standards, I wanted to make a suggestion to change our rules on language. I find the prohibition of using languages other tan English unnecessary, outdated and discriminatory.

It is unnecessary because English will continue to be the overwhelmingly majoritarian language, and I do not think we will have a wave of posters in other languages. It is outdated and discriminatory, because it is extremely easy today to overcome any language barriere and live up to a more inclusive mindset.

 

 

[BuffaloKyle]

My guess is it's because if none of the moderators are lingual in any language besides English then they can't see if any violations are going on in a thread. Sure they can use a translator app but just easier on them.

[marylander1940]

2 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

My guess is it's because if none of the moderators are lingual in any language besides English then they can't see if any violations are going on in a thread. Sure they can use a translator app but just easier on them.

Exactly, it's common sense. 

 

[BSR]

9 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

My guess is it's because if none of the moderators are lingual in any language besides English then they can't see if any violations are going on in a thread. Sure they can use a translator app but just easier on them.

When I first used Google translate, the translations often didn't make sense.  To see how accurate the translations were, I tried it with some Spanish, the only other language I can read.  Eek! It was horrible!  I haven't used any other translation apps.

[+ José Soplanucas]

2 minutes ago, BSR said:

When I first used Google translate, the translations often didn't make sense.  To see how accurate the translations were, I tried it with some Spanish, the only other language I can read.  Eek! It was horrible!  I haven't used any other translation apps.

You should try again. I save a lot of time in my job using Google Translate, and often no editions are needed. It has significantly improved the last three years.

[+ MysticMenace]

5 minutes ago, latbear4blk said:

You should try again. I save a lot of time in my job using Google Translate, and often no editions are needed. It has significantly improved the last three years.

I actually put this exact same sentence in Google Translate and I think it closely translates - 

• Deberías intentarlo de nuevo. Ahorro mucho tiempo en mi trabajo usando Google Translate y, a menudo, no se necesitan ediciones. Ha mejorado significativamente en los últimos tres años.

What google translate may not capture well are idiomatic expressions and/or slang + implicit tone / connotation in other languages. But then again, I also suck at fully figuring out idiomatic expressions and/or slang in English, so happy that we have the amazing volunteers who moderates the forums.

[rvwnsd]

On 1/8/2022 at 7:49 PM, latbear4blk said:

On the same spirit of updating the M4M forums to contemporary standards, I wanted to make a suggestion to change our rules on language. I find the prohibition of using languages other tan English unnecessary, outdated and discriminatory.

It is unnecessary because English will continue to be the overwhelmingly majoritarian language, and I do not think we will have a wave of posters in other languages. It is outdated and discriminatory, because it is extremely easy today to overcome any language barriere and live up to a more inclusive mindset.

 

 

Dziękuje za twoją sugestię! Moderatorzy omówią to i opublikują odpowiedź, gdy otrzymamy odpowiedź.

[marylander1940]

55 minutes ago, JoeMendoza said:

I actually put this exact same sentence in Google Translate and I think it closely translates - 

• Deberías intentarlo de nuevo. Ahorro mucho tiempo en mi trabajo usando Google Translate y, a menudo, no se necesitan ediciones. Ha mejorado significativamente en los últimos tres años.

What google translate may not capture well are idiomatic expressions and/or slang + implicit tone / connotation in other languages. But then again, I also suck at fully figuring out idiomatic expressions and/or slang in English, so happy that we have the amazing volunteers who moderates the forums.

and sarcasm... google translator doesn't get it. 

[+ glutes]

There are some people here that can't interpret sarcasm. And English is their only language.

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

10 hours ago, rvwnsd said:

Dziękuje za twoją sugestię! Moderatorzy omówią to i opublikują odpowiedź, gdy otrzymamy odpowiedź.

Dziękuję moderatorom!

[+ José Soplanucas]

Look, the best argument I heard against allowing other languages is that, supposedly, it would be too taxing for the moderators. However, all the posts I have seen in other languages and all my posts that have been deleted for violating this rule (one under the new administration, several under Daddy's) were two to three lines posts. Checking them with Google Translate takes less time than reading many of the individual contributions in the Politics forum (I do not want to mention any of the prolific writers over there).

[RadioRob]

This is an issue that is going to be considered.  The moderators will actually be getting together as a group at the end of the month and this topic is on the agenda.  

I obviously can't make any promises one way or another about what the final outcome will be, but as you might have noticed over the past year...  there has been a number of areas where we've relaxed prior stances a bit.  

Just because something has always been done a certain way does not mean we're not willing to consider changes when it makes sense.  Even if we can't fully change it, there is also a possibility of finding a middle ground.  For example, not having complete paragraphs of text in a foreign language, but to allow quotes and several lines of it as it makes sense.  

Again, I'm not saying that is going to be the final outcome.  Instead if there are issues/objections, instead of just saying "no", I typically like to have the conversation of "how do we get closer to yes".  

[marylander1940]

2 hours ago, latbear4blk said:

Look, the best argument I heard against allowing other languages is that, supposedly, it would be too taxing for the moderators. However, all the posts I have seen in other languages and all my posts that have been deleted for violating this rule (one under the new administration, several under Daddy's) were two to three lines posts. Checking them with Google Translate takes less time than reading many of the individual contributions in the Politics forum (I do not want to mention any of the prolific writers over there).

Would you like us to vote on this subject? 

 

[BuffaloKyle]

16 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

Would you like us to vote on this subject? 

 

Quick thought mainly for @RadioRob when it's time for the meetings. If you did allow of using other languages I would open a sub forum. The "Spanish Lounge" area for example and any other ones that get requested. Then any and all users who wanted to converse about topics in Spanish could use that forum.

[marylander1940]

16 minutes ago, BuffaloKyle said:

Quick thought mainly for @RadioRob when it's time for the meetings. If you did allow of using other languages I would open a sub forum. The "Spanish Lounge" area for example and any other ones that get requested. Then any and all users who wanted to converse about topics in Spanish could use that forum.

I would post in a forum like that to practice Spanish.

Great idea but is up to the powers to decide!

[+ glutes]

Спасибо!

[MikeBiDude]

3 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

Would you like us to vote on this subject? 

 

You mistake us for a democracy? We are a benevolent dictatorship. 😂 <sarcasm> lest anyone gets worked up!

[+ Charlie]

There are many phrases, sayings, etc., in other languages that many readers understand, that certainly don't need to be translated. A long passage in another language, however, does make extra work for our poorly paid moderators 😉, not to mention a reader who doesn't know the language and doesn't know how to use a translator app. What probably should not be allowed is commentary in another script (a possible exception might be Cyrilic), where the moderator might not even be able to identify the language (do any of our moderators read Urdu?).

Edited January 11, 2022 by Charlie

[BSR]

7 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

Quick thought mainly for @RadioRob when it's time for the meetings. If you did allow of using other languages I would open a sub forum. The "Spanish Lounge" area for example and any other ones that get requested. Then any and all users who wanted to converse about topics in Spanish could use that forum.

If none of the current moderators read/write Spanish well enough to moderate a Spanish subforum, perhaps they could recruit someone.  Plenty of forum members have Spanish good enough to moderate.

[+ Lucky]

Maybe we could survey the members for whom English is not a first language and see what they think, and what language they would want to use here.

[RadioRob]

2 hours ago, BSR said:

If none of the current moderators read/write Spanish well enough to moderate a Spanish subforum, perhaps they could recruit someone.  Plenty of forum members have Spanish good enough to moderate.

Funny thing is that we’ve asked for volunteers to help moderate. Literally ZERO people offered. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

10 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

Quick thought mainly for @RadioRob when it's time for the meetings. If you did allow of using other languages I would open a sub forum. The "Spanish Lounge" area for example and any other ones that get requested. Then any and all users who wanted to converse about topics in Spanish could use that forum.

I do not have an opinion about opening a Spanish subform, that is not at all related to my suggestion. Based on his responses above, I think @RadioRob is understanding what I am talking about. Just to be illustrative and avoid xenophobic nightmares, allow me to give an example.

The last time I was sanctioned for posting in another language, I had posted a KKK picture and the following line: "Dios los cría, y ellos se juntan". Google Translate provides you a translation in seconds. However, I received an official Warning and a 5 points penalty.

I do not know whether an admin felt inspired by the Holy Spirit to enforce the rules or one of my admirers reported me and an admin was forced to apply the rules. I do not know and I do not care. What I do know is that there is no reason to ban posts in another language.

12 hours ago, RadioRob said:

Just because something has always been done a certain way does not mean we're not willing to consider changes when it makes sense.  Even if we can't fully change it, there is also a possibility of finding a middle ground.  For example, not having complete paragraphs of text in a foreign language, but to allow quotes and several lines of it as it makes sense.

I think the distinction would be quite simple. We can allow posting in another language, but not allow dialoguing in another language. The post I used as an example and the kind of posts I am thinking of when I make this suggestion are not intended to trigger a conversation in another language. 

Let me give you another example. I am almost certain (as you know I have a terrible memory)that @BSRpublished a few months ago a YouTube video in Spanish, in a thread about the debate on the Spanish colonization's black legend. The video was ethically questionable for its content, but it was erased because it was a video in Spanish. I am sure BSR was not trying to start a conversation in another language. 

This is the video. I post it as a link to follow the rules. As you can see, the video is in Spanish but it takes you 5 seconds to set the auto-translation and get subtitles in English. 

I rest my case.

Thank you for considering my suggestion!

[+ newatthis]

12 hours ago, latbear4blk said:

...Google Translate provides you a translation in seconds....

Without weighing in on the pros and cons of the original suggestion,  I'd like to point out that it takes the same "seconds" for the original poster to use Translate to post in English and/or to provide an English translation of the original quote...which switches the translation burden away from the moderators.

[RadioRob]

Thank you all for the discussion.  Again, it will be discussed with the wider team.  If there is something new to report, we will make sure to communicate it.  

[RadioRob]

To close the loop on this...  as promised, this topic was discussed as part of our moderator meetup in Ft Lauderdale this past weekend.  While we don't plan to remove the foreign language rule, we have agreed to loosen it up a bit.  

• Use of short phrases/quotes or commonly used foreign terms (Que sera, hasta luego, feliz cumpleaños, etc) will all be allowed.  
• Having a sentence or two posted/quoted in a foreign language will be allowed if it is not the majority of the post.  (There is not a hard/fast rule around this, but think in general terms of the use should be under 10% of the post.  The intent is for it not to be paragraphs of text.)  
• Linking to content in a foreign language will be allowed.   
• All of our standard site rules continue to apply.  (Don't harass someone in a foreign language, no personal information, blah blah blah...) 

We don't want to spend tons of time translating a whole bunch of posts.  We have literally hundreds of posts a day that we look at.  As a result, we feel this helps balance the ask with the need to manage difficulty AND foster communication when 95% of site users are coming from the US.