Stop the Music

[Luv2play]

There is something wrong about having music concerts where people die. Reading the accounts of the Houston Astrodome disaster,I was struck by the oft quoted remarks by veteran concertgoers that "you expect people to pass out".

Really, this is considered normal and acceptable? And now I suppose people will say " you expect some will die". This is craziness. It's something that happens regularly in third world countries like at religious festivals. But the United States?

I expect there will be changes made as a result of this disaster. To me it is unacceptable that concert promoters can get away with this type of situation.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

I'm sure lawmakers will try to use this to their political advantage, but ultimately, you cannot control the moment-to-moment urges of a crowd of 50k people.

It's a bit like letting a mass of water from a tank and then expecting it to behave.  Not gonna happen.

That said, Woodstock 1969 only had 2 reported deaths over the course of a long weekend.  That was over 400k people total.

Different times indeed.  However, to expect more just because it's the States is a little pie in the sky.  That's atomic 1950's mentality.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Benjamin_Nicholas

[Luv2play]

My recollection is that the deaths at Woodstock were drug related. A 50,000 attendance at a concert tells me that $millions of box-office receipts are involved. So where is the problem in having adequate protection provided?

Fans went crazy at Beatles concerts in the 60s which were just as large. Nobody died. This is not rocket science. But cutting corners with security is easy if no-one is bothering to look.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

5 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

My recollection is that the deaths at Woodstock were drug related. A 50,000 attendance at a concert tells me that $millions of box-office receipts are involved. So where is the problem in having adequate protection provided?

Fans went crazy at Beatles concerts in the 60s which were just as large. Nobody died. This is not rocket science. But cutting corners with security is easy if no-one is bothering to look.

Woodstock was one death from drugs and one person run over by a tractor (I shit you not).

However, we can't compare a crowd now to a crowd from 50+ years ago.  Times, people and temperaments have changed.

Great security wouldn't have stopped a surge of 50k from moving forward and crushing the front of the stage.  

[+ nycman]

50,000 is a very large but not huge event. In an open, outdoor,
well designed, space, that shouldn’t lead to multiple crush injury
deaths.  Nonetheless, a sudden wave of panic can easily set off
a group and mass hysteria quickly ensues. 

There’s really no way to prevent it other than sectioning them off
like they do in Times Square on New Years Eve. It kills the vibe, 
but that’s the point. 

It’s one, of several, reasons I no longer attended large events. 
I’ve been "nearly crushed" and certainly "stepped on" more than
a few times in my misspent youth. I consider myself lucky,
and I no longer feel the need to tempt fate.

Having worked on planning events of this size, this is one of 
many "worst case" scenarios that keeps you up at night in the
weeks leading up to the event.  

Edited November 8, 2021 by nycman

[Luv2play]

I also avoid these large gatherings. Ever since I was at Parliament Hill in Ottawa for the July First (national holiday) celebrations years ago when a crowd of easily over 50,000 was leaving after the event.

The security was terrible and the police had actually erected barriers making it difficult to exit the site. People started pushing and I was afraid I would lose my footing. This guy beside me was walking his bike and I thought great, just what I need to fall on and be crushed by someone falling on top of me.

I never attended another event on Parliament Hill.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Just now, Luv2play said:

I thought great, just what I need to fall on and be crushed by someone falling on top of me.

Irony is that a lot of guys would pay top dollar for that experience

[Luv2play]

1 minute ago, Benjamin_Nicholas said:

Irony is that a lot of guys would pay top dollar for that experience

I don't mind a guy bearing down on me but not if there are spiky things under my back poking through me. 

Now in a cushy bed, bring it on.😈

[Luv2play]

Just now, Luv2play said:

I don't mind a guy bearing down on me but not if there are spiky things under my back poking through me. 

Now in a cushy bed, bring it on.😈

Just last week, an escort asked me several times "am I too heavy?" and I replied " no, keep doing what you're doing" lol.

[HotWhiteThirties]

Some years ago I found myself on the bank of the Thames River gazing over at the London Eye for their annual New Year's Eve countdown. Never again! Once was enough. Literally a million people so tightly packed. I was with a group of about 8 people. Once the new year had been rung in, the crowd began to empty out toward Charing Cross and Trafalgar's Square. We were absolutely helpless to determine our direction - like @Benjamin_Nicholas described as water being poured out. Our group clasped hands tightly to try to prevent being swept away and lost. People were pressing and pushing. Panicking. Had we tripped, we would have been trampled. I have never forgotten that feeling and how we had no choice but to flow with the crowd wherever it took us until eventually the "current" of humanity quit flowing as densely. 
 

So, as a result, I have no interest in such events where hundreds of thousands/millions convene. I will watch any future year be rung in from my living room, or a far less populated venue with plenty of space!!!

 

Devastating, horrific event at the Astrodome. Heartbreaking for those lost...ages 14 to 27, from what I read in one news article. Tragic, indeed. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by HotWhiteThirties

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

26 minutes ago, HotWhiteThirties said:

Some years ago I found myself on the bank of the Thames River gazing over at the London Eye for their annual New Year's Eve countdown. Never again! Once was enough. Literally a million people so tightly packed. I was with a group of about 8 people. Once the new year had been rung in, the crowd began to empty out toward Charing Cross and Trafalgar's Square. We were absolutely helpless to determine our direction - like @Benjamin_Nicholas described as water being poured out. Our group clasped hands tightly to try to prevent being swept away and lost. People were pressing and pushing. Panicking. Had we tripped, we would have been trampled. I have never forgotten that feeling and how we had no choice but to flow with the crowd wherever it took us until eventually the "current" of humanity quit flowing as densely. 
 

So, as a result, I have no interest in such events where hundreds of thousands/millions convene. I will watch any future year be rung in from my living room, or a far less populated venue with plenty of space!!!

 

Devastating, horrific event at the Astrodome. Heartbreaking for those lost...ages 14 to 27, from what I read in one news article. Tragic, indeed. 

Yikes.  

In having been in your exact shoes for London's NYE, as well as Times Square, I no longer agree to do those kinds of events with clients.

It's uncomfortable and a basic shitshow.  I'm not prone to anxiety, but those situations come close.

[HotWhiteThirties]

20 minutes ago, Benjamin_Nicholas said:

Yikes.  

In having been in your exact shoes for London's NYE, as well as Times Square, I no longer agree to do those kinds of events with clients.

It's uncomfortable and a basic shitshow.  I'm not prone to anxiety, but those situations come close.

Right! It's a horrible feeling. I will never forget it. Don't plan to ever put myself in a similar circumstance again! 

And yeah. Shit show. Watch it on TV instead! There are WAY better ways to celebrate the changing of years.

[+ FreshFluff]

Big crowds flow like liquids, complete with waves.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat9891

Or this summary.

 

[jeezifonly]

Concerts today are interactive. It’s why people go! Tragedies sometimes happen in the midst of great joy being shared. Self-control and awareness of space were being shed in favor of the joy, by people who felt free and unchained after captivity.
Fingers will point, lawyers will profit, concerts will be fun again. 
Sad for the families especially just before holidays.

[Guest]

Like @Luv2play, I avoid events with huge crowds.  If I attend an event, it would be one appealing to a civilized and sober crowd.  Frankly, I don’t understand if barricades are sufficient or if they are part of the problem.

https://abc13.com/crowd-surge-meaning-astroworld-2021-travis-scott-crush/11208333/

[+ Lucky]

I too avoid large crowds, unless it consists of shirtless young Brazilian men!

[Rod Hagen]

Years ago I was at a No Age concert, this one:

 In the rare instance I'm alone at a concert, I want to get as close to the stage as I can, so that night I stood JUST at the border of the danger zone, where everyone was crushing and thrashing and crowd surfing.  Security was freaking out because this is definitely NOT The kind of concert McAruthur Park usually sees; more often it's either Latin or Classical music.  THIS night someone picked up a guy and his Wheel Chair and he crowd surfed and LOVED it. :-)  But security was truly on edge.

And it was fine, until just before the last song the lead singer of Black Flag*, who had joined No Age on stage, said, "this is our last song, so fuck it, do whatever you want" and I could feel and see the slam dancing and shoving that had been nearest the stage move it's way through the crowd like a wave. 

it was violent, and fun, and as far as I know nobody got hurt. BUT I sure am glad everyone waited until the last song to expand the intensity.

 

*I know BF is legendary and important, but I'm not a fan and I wish No Age hadn't sung so many songs with them.  Still, an amazing night, one of the best concerts I've attended.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rod Hagen

[+ RJD]

16 hours ago, HotWhiteThirties said:

Some years ago I found myself on the bank of the Thames River gazing over at the London Eye for their annual New Year's Eve countdown. Never again! Once was enough. Literally a million people so tightly packed. I was with a group of about 8 people. Once the new year had been rung in, the crowd began to empty out toward Charing Cross and Trafalgar's Square. We were absolutely helpless to determine our direction - like @Benjamin_Nicholas described as water being poured out. Our group clasped hands tightly to try to prevent being swept away and lost. People were pressing and pushing. Panicking. Had we tripped, we would have been trampled. I have never forgotten that feeling and how we had no choice but to flow with the crowd wherever it took us until eventually the "current" of humanity quit flowing as densely. 
 

So, as a result, I have no interest in such events where hundreds of thousands/millions convene. I will watch any future year be rung in from my living room, or a far less populated venue with plenty of space!!!

 

Devastating, horrific event at the Astrodome. Heartbreaking for those lost...ages 14 to 27, from what I read in one news article. Tragic, indeed. 

I found myself in a similar situation back in the late 80's attending a U2 concert at the old JFK Stadium in Philly.   It was one of the last events at the venue, which was rapidly deteriorating.  They had standing room only festival/general admission on the field.  That stadium easily held 100,000 people in the bleachers and it was packed that night.  We were near the front but not quite there.  At some point the crowd started pushing forward and we moved with the crowd to avoid being injured.  Eventually, we made our way to the bleachers, climbed to the top row and watched the remainder of the concert from there.  From that vantage point we were able to see the people at the front getting pinned against the security railings.  I don't recall any serious injuries but there were some fists flying. 

Same as you, I have zero desire to be in the middle of that chaos, especially now as I <<<clears throat>>> approach middle age.    

[+ nycman]

12 hours ago, Rod Hagen said:

until just before the last song the lead singer of Black Flag*

How….fucking….dare…..you not use his name? You little punk ass bitch!

The man was and is a fucking G-O-D

I give you….Henry Rollins!

 

For the record, it was a Mosh Pit at a Black Flag concert in Philly that I decided
"I’m too old for this shit", and became a little punk ass bitch myself, and exited 
the mosh pit forever. At the ripe old age of 25!

grin

Edited November 9, 2021 by nycman

[Luv2play]

10 hours ago, Lucky said:

I too avoid large crowds, unless it consists of shirtless young Brazilian men!

Yes, the beaches of Ipanema and Cococabana come to mind. Never felt threatened in those crowds.

[Rod Hagen]

8 hours ago, nycman said:

How….fucking….dare…..you not use his name? You little punk ass bitch!

The man was and is a fucking G-O-D

I give you….Henry Rollins!

 

Wasn't sure anyone would know the name.  Interesting thing is I really like Henry Rollins, yet I very much do not respond to Black Flag.

[rvwnsd]

53 minutes ago, Rod Hagen said:

Wasn't sure anyone would know the name.  Interesting thing is I really like Henry Rollins, yet I very much do not respond to Black Flag.

I like him too but, like you, am not a fan of Black Flag.

 

Like others, I avoid large crowds. Back in the mid-1990's some friends and I decided attending Taste of Chicago on July 3 and watching the fireworks from Grant Park was a fabulous idea. 

It wasn't.

There were way too many people at TOC to enjoy eating anything. The fireworks were spectacular but it was hard to be comfortable with nearly a million other people. However, we were impressed by how the City, the police, and the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) handled the exiting crowds. 'L' cars were waiting to shuttle people to stations where they could catch trains going north, west, south, and southwest; every bus that wasn't actively working a route was waiting to shuttle people to designated red and blue line subway stations and to bus stops outside of The Loop, and the commuter trains would load and go. Watching the logistical show was almost better than the fireworks. 

[BabyBoomer]

9 hours ago, nycman said:

How….fucking….dare…..you not use his name?

 

1 hour ago, Rod Hagen said:

Wasn't sure anyone would know the name. 

 

2 minutes ago, rvwnsd said:

I like him too but, like you, am not a fan of Black Flag.

 

 

 

When I was a kid, BLACK FLAG was an insecticide. 😀

~Boomer~

 

 

 

[samhexum]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:52 PM, Luv2play said:

Reading the accounts of the Houston Astrodome disaster,I was struck by the oft quoted remarks by veteran concertgoers that "you expect people to pass out".

Why in the world would they hold a concert in a stadium that closed 13 years ago for safety violations and has never been used since?

[+ Charlie]

21 hours ago, RJD said:

I found myself in a similar situation back in the late 80's attending a U2 concert at the old JFK Stadium in Philly.   It was one of the last events at the venue, which was rapidly deteriorating.  They had standing room only festival/general admission on the field.  That stadium easily held 100,000 people in the bleachers and it was packed that night.  We were near the front but not quite there.  At some point the crowd started pushing forward and we moved with the crowd to avoid being injured.  Eventually, we made our way to the bleachers, climbed to the top row and watched the remainder of the concert from there.  From that vantage point we were able to see the people at the front getting pinned against the security railings.  I don't recall any serious injuries but there were some fists flying. 

Same as you, I have zero desire to be in the middle of that chaos, especially now as I <<<clears throat>>> approach middle age.    

The actual seating capacity of JFK Stadium was only 72,000. (My spouse was a stadium architect, and worked on its replacement, the Linc.)