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Do you eschew all travel to countries where gay sex is illegal?


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I've visited southern Africa, (RSA, Botswana, Zim/Zam), but would be interested in seeing Kenya and Madagascar. I fly with American Airlines, so would be most interested in flying on OneWorld (codeshare) airlines, such as British Airways. I had thought of flying to Kenya (with BA), then onto Madagascar, but Chris told me he won't travel to Kenya because gay sex is punishable by prison there. I suppose we could take BA to Mauritius then on to Madagascar. I guess I differentiate between countries where gays are actually persecuted and pursued (Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Jamaica, Iran, etc.) and where it's just technically illegal. What countries would you consider off limits? In this map, countries in orange proscribe jail time for gay sex. Those in brown could get the death penalty:

1920px-World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg.png

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1 hour ago, Unicorn said:

I've visited southern Africa, (RSA, Botswana, Zim/Zam), but would be interested in seeing Kenya and Madagascar. I fly with American Airlines, so would be most interested in flying on OneWorld (codeshare) airlines, such as British Airways. I had thought of flying to Kenya (with BA), then onto Madagascar, but Chris told me he won't travel to Kenya because gay sex is punishable by prison there. I suppose we could take BA to Mauritius then on to Madagascar. I guess I differentiate between countries where gays are actually persecuted and pursued (Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Jamaica, Iran, etc.) and where it's just technically illegal. What countries would you consider off limits? In this map, countries in orange proscribe jail time for gay sex. Those in brown could get the death penalty:

1920px-World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg.png

Prescribe?

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12 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I've visited southern Africa, (RSA, Botswana, Zim/Zam), but would be interested in seeing Kenya and Madagascar. I fly with American Airlines, so would be most interested in flying on OneWorld (codeshare) airlines, such as British Airways. I had thought of flying to Kenya (with BA), then onto Madagascar, but Chris told me he won't travel to Kenya because gay sex is punishable by prison there. I suppose we could take BA to Mauritius then on to Madagascar. I guess I differentiate between countries where gays are actually persecuted and pursued (Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Jamaica, Iran, etc.) and where it's just technically illegal. What countries would you consider off limits? In this map, countries in orange proscribe jail time for gay sex. Those in brown could get the death penalty:

1920px-World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg.png

As a rule I do avoid travel to those locations for leisure. I even refused a business trip to Uganda two years ago.  My professional qualifications require me to disclose if I am charged with a crime and I could lose my license to practice. So I play it very safe. If my circumstances change I may reconsider. 

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I suppose this thread will head toward the Politics forum soon. 

I travel for personal pleasure and education. Though I'd certainly like to see some countries take an enlightened and tolerant view on various concerns, a personal embargo on travel to those countries will do little. 

 

Edited by azdr0710
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1 hour ago, Rod Hagen said:

I can't quite tell on the map, if Morocco is orange, you nevertheless need to go.

Also, whatever color Jordan is, you definitely need to see Petra.

 

Jordan is gray, meaning gay sex is not illegal (but no gay marriage). Yellow means there are laws forbidding gay sex on the books, but they're not enforced. Dark blue means full gay marriage, light blue means domestic partnerships, purple means gay marriages are recognized when performed elsewhere, but not performed in that jurisdiction (for example, there are some states of Mexico where gay marriages aren't preformed, but marriages performed in other states or countries are fully recognized). I have visited Morocco, Egypt, and Jordan (including Petra)--countries where it's illegal, but gays aren't really persecuted as long as one is reasonably discreet. I wouldn't visit countries with a serious danger such as Uganda, or even Jamaica, which, although the laws criminalizing gay sex aren't enforced, there's severe anti-gay sentiment and violence against gays is condoned.

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This map looked so different when I started traveling internationally a half century ago, that I probably wouldn't have gone anywhere if I had eliminated places where gay sex was illegal--it was illegal here in the US, where I was born and lived then! I have never been to a brown country, but I have been to a few of the orange ones (e.g., Morocco and Malaysia), and I would probably go back to them. On the whole, however, the countries where gays are seriously persecuted are ones where I probably wouldn't have been interested in traveling anyway.

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7 hours ago, azdr0710 said:

I suppose this thread will head toward the Politics forum soon. 

I travel for personal pleasure and education. Though I'd certainly like to see some countries take an enlightened and tolerant view on various concerns, a personal embargo on travel to those countries will do little. 

 

I agree, boycotting travel to LGBT-hostile countries will have zero impact on the policies & culture of those countries, but that's not why I would avoid them.  I would feel too uncomfortable in a country where gay sex is punishable with fines & prison time.  We all travel for personal pleasure & education.  Would I learn something by traveling in Saudi Arabia?  Yes, I'm sure I would.  But knowing how deeply homophobic the country is and always being on guard would preclude any possibility of "personal pleasure."

There are so many LGBT-friendly countries I'd like to visit that I doubt I'll be able to tick all of them off my bucket list.  Even if I were lucky enough to go to all my wish-list countries, I'd go back & revisit some LGBT-frindly places before going to any LGBT-hostile country.

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On 10/27/2021 at 2:45 PM, marylander1940 said:

Sodomy used to be illegal in many American states till 2003. Crazy but true! Thank God for activist judges who got rid of it! 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

Russia and Bosnia could use many more activist judges from my experience in those two countries.

Of course, Bosnia is far more enlightened.

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On 10/27/2021 at 5:34 PM, BSR said:

I agree, boycotting travel to LGBT-hostile countries will have zero impact on the policies & culture of those countries, but that's not why I would avoid them.  I would feel too uncomfortable in a country where gay sex is punishable with fines & prison time.  We all travel for personal pleasure & education.  Would I learn something by traveling in Saudi Arabia?  Yes, I'm sure I would.  But knowing how deeply homophobic the country is and always being on guard would preclude any possibility of "personal pleasure."

There are so many LGBT-friendly countries I'd like to visit that I doubt I'll be able to tick all of them off my bucket list.  Even if I were lucky enough to go to all my wish-list countries, I'd go back & revisit some LGBT-frindly places before going to any LGBT-hostile country.

I agree. No way, no how would I visit the countries where gay sex can be punishable by death: Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Somalia, and northern Nigeria (brown on the map above). Of those, the only countries I'd probably like to see are Iran and maybe Saudi Arabia, but obviously there would need to be some serious changes in their laws and attitudes. 

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There seem to be tons of gay models who seem to be living in the UAE. I suspect there's some Emir or other extremely rich man who's taking care of them. I'd love to know how those deals work out. 

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"Let's travel to see different cultures, but avoid places that don't have the same values as us.".  Seems ironic.

If it were a hundred years ago and I had the means to travel, I wouldn't avoid countries that still had slavery or did not allow women to vote.  It may influence where I decide to set up business, but it seems counterintuitive to travel the world and only visit places that have the same culture as home

 

 

Edited by Vegas_nw1982
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6 hours ago, Vegas_nw1982 said:

"Let's travel to see different cultures, but avoid places that don't have the same values as us.".  Seems ironic.

If it were a hundred years ago and I had the means to travel, I wouldn't avoid countries that still had slavery or did not allow women to vote.  It may influence where I decide to set up business, but it seems counterintuitive to travel the world and only visit places that have the same culture as home

That's a reasonable basis for deciding and one that it is easy to take when the policy concerned does not affect you directly. If you're not at threat of being enslaved while visiting, slavery there does not affect you, and travellers can't vote anyway. If you were a hypothetical African with the means to travel, you may have thought twice before visiting the antebellum South before 1860.

There are two reasons people may avoid countries that punish homosexuality with prison or death. One is that you don't want to give them any of your money, there are plenty of places to visit, so why would you go there? The other is that you face personal danger from the policy, and that danger varies with your personal circumstances and the vigour with which the policies are implemented. You may feel safer if you travel solo and don't plan on seeking sex, than if you are travelling with a same sex partner. If a country scoured the internet looking for evidence of homosexuality, you would have cause to be less comfortable than in one that is only concerned about conspicuous public displays of your orientation, or LGBTI activism.

So, it comes down to principle or personal danger. Me? Most of the places where this is an issue I'm not inclined to visit anyway. I would hesitate to travel to Saudi Arabia, but as much for its generally repressive policies. There are some spectacular places to visit there. In Malaysia and Singapore the laws are on the books but rarely enforced so I'm fine with going there, or flying on their airlines. I'd go to Indonesia too, although draw the line at Aceh. Garuda? Not so much, although that's more a judgment on the airline than on religion. I had a 'principle' phase when all Qantas flights to Europe went via Dubai, with many of them on Emirates metal, but I've moved on and so have Qantas, and the point was moot as I didn't travel during that period. I'm now more all else being equal I'll favour another airline over the Middle East three, but 'avoid shit airlines' is more the way I approach it now and those three are not shit airlines. (One that won't serve alcohol is.)

I don't think there are any wrong answers here. Every decision we make is informed by our principles (even if they are flexible) and the risks we face, Where we choose to travel is no exception.

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My partner and I used to travel to countries which are not gay friendly, like Russia, but now that we are legally married and I am basically his caregiver, I would not go to a country which would not recognize that relationship and treat it appropriately.

Edited by Charlie
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1 hour ago, Charlie said:

My partner and I used to travel to countries which are not gay friendly, like Russia, but now that we are legally married and I am basically his caregiver, I would not go to a country which would not recognize that relationship and treat it appropriately.

Why?

 

Would you feel the same way if you had never been to Russia?

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47 minutes ago, WilliamM said:

Why?

 

Would you feel the same way if you had never been to Russia?

Because I would not go to a country where they didn't recognize our legal relationship, in case there were a situation such as a medical emergency in which I needed to make decisions for my spouse. The fact that we have already been to Russia is irrelevant.

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18 hours ago, Charlie said:

Because I would not go to a country where they didn't recognize our legal relationship, in case there were a situation such as a medical emergency in which I needed to make decisions for my spouse. The fact that we have already been to Russia is irrelevant.

I suspect doctors in St. Petersburg would individually recognize your legal relationship. Even that city greatly needs satisfied tourists

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