Will you pay a deposit to a stranger?

[+ tassojunior]

Ryan Rose breezed through DC like a thunderstorm this week and created quiet the controversy with his demand for deposits and tirades on social media about people questioning them. I suspect this will be an up-and-coming issue with rates edging higher  and more demand from clients with extra money from not hiring all year. 

Having to translate sometimes for friends in the game and being around them for months at a time I can completely understand the frustration of so many no-shows from strangers. Even if the provider doesn't have another client he refused, he could have been doing other things than waiting. And then there's the pranksters and the calls to fake addresses.

OTOH there are so many scams and flakes in the industry "deposits" could be a great game. And who wants to give personal information ? Fortunately(?) I have my dance card full too often with houseguests.. Also from my one time meeting Ryan in a toilet stall at Boardwalk I wouldn't guess he's 100% reliable. I can see the point, but there's got to be a better way.

and I do love the comment "I'm not getting a mortgage on a house, i'm buying a piece of ass".

Ryan knows how to bring out the best in people.

From his twitter (i think he hit Post twice.):

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by tassojunior

[+ Pensant]

Lovely fellow!

[+ tassojunior]

15 minutes ago, Pensant said:

Lovely fellow!

yup, he's one of those people who's lives i enjoy watching from a distance on social media. 

a couple months ago he decided to change his life totally and move to South Africa with a rich older lover who had a big house and fancy cars. Goodbye USA. Three days later he was asking if anyone knew a good lawyer in Capetown.  

Providers do have scheduling problems and there needs to be trustworthy deposits from strangers. But Ryan's a poor spokesperson for that cause. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by tassojunior

[+ tassojunior]

[Wanderoz]

He thinks he’s a bank, taking deposits. 

[Chance]

Wonder how this has impacted his business/earnings ?  Def a turn off for me personally 

[+ FrankR]

Nope - it’s not for me. He has the right to run his business the way he wants. I have the right not to participate. 😬

[maninsoma]

I understand a guy being concerned about having no-shows or maybe even guys who try to get something for nothing by not paying at the end of a session, but it's extremely rare in the professional world to have to pay for work before it's performed.  I pay at the counter at my doctor's office when I arrive for my appointment, so that would be the equivalent of paying an escort on arrival.  If I need work beyond a normal cleaning/exam at my dentist's office, I pay my portion after he performs the work.  I know that people pay a deposit when hiring a contractor, but that makes sense because that person typically has to procure materials for the job before actually starting work. 

The notion that I would just send money via Venmo or whatever to someone I had never met simply because he promised to be available for me at a certain future time is laughable.  But, like FrankR wrote, the guy has a right to run his business the way he wants and we as clients have the right to simply look for someone without such a requirement.

[DBWEHO]

When Jack Dixon was in LA he was asking for a $50 deposit for new clients, I didn't love the idea, but I paid it. When the timing didn't work out he promptly returned it with an apology. This Rose guy sounds like a jerk though. 

[+ tassojunior]

11 minutes ago, maninsoma said:

I understand a guy being concerned about having no-shows or maybe even guys who try to get something for nothing by not paying at the end of a session, but it's extremely rare in the professional world to have to pay for work before it's performed.  I pay at the counter at my doctor's office when I arrive for my appointment, so that would be the equivalent of paying an escort on arrival.  If I need work beyond a normal cleaning/exam at my dentist's office, I pay my portion after he performs the work.  I know that people pay a deposit when hiring a contractor, but that makes sense because that person typically has to procure materials for the job before actually starting work. 

The notion that I would just send money via Venmo or whatever to someone I had never met simply because he promised to be available for me at a certain future time is laughable.  But, like FrankR wrote, the guy has a right to run his business the way he wants and we as clients have the right to simply look for someone without such a requirement.

I think the difference is that if you don't show for a dentist they will usually charge you at least a cancellation fee. And they have all your contact information. Right now providers are making money hand over fist so i don't have as much sympathy but they do lose money, not just inconvenience with no-shows. It's the fakes and the fake address out-calls that are the worst issues. 

[Chance]

22 minutes ago, DBWEHO said:

When Jack Dixon was in LA he was asking for a $50 deposit for new clients, I didn't love the idea, but I paid it. When the timing didn't work out he promptly returned it with an apology. This Rose guy sounds like a jerk though. 

Bingo 

Same ask - different approach - wildly diff 

[+ tassojunior]

18 minutes ago, Chance said:

Bingo 

Same ask - different approach - wildly diff 

Was it through Venmo ? Were there alternatives? I think many clients would not want personal information given and yet some way to ask for it back if the provider cancels/no shows. I absolutely think it's a fine idea it's just how to avoid the scammers and frauds advertising.

[+ pitman]

An escort friend of mine was hired for 2 overnights on Cape Cod.  The day before his SFO-BOS flight the client cancelled.  Two other clients in Boston also cancelled, so he ended up spending four days there and saw only one client.  Fortunately he was able to make it up in other cities on his 
East Coast/South tour.  He now asks for a $50 deposit.

[RyanDean]

In principle, I would not be opposed to paying an "appointment confirmation fee" but, yeah, it's the logistics that introduce all kinds of problems: non-anonymous payment mechanisms; inconsistency as to whether the deposit is part of the appointment fee or on top of it; the actual amount of the deposit; no mechanism for when the provider does the ghosting... I will say that I have considered such a fee when the gent adds a caveat like "for first-time clients" because that seems both reasonable and responsible (and like it's not a hustle). But even then it's the anonymity of the payment mechanism that remains my primary sticking point.

And can you imagine how many fakers would glom onto "advance deposits" as their primary grift were they to become the norm?

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by RyanDean

[lonely_john]

I honestly don't understand how a service provider can insult a client and expect that behaviour to not have an impact on his business. Once it's on a screen, it can be all over the internet. The client is right at telling him he must get over himself because he has a greater than life ego. That or he has a very low IQ.

[+ tassojunior]

8 minutes ago, lonely_john said:

I honestly don't understand how a service provider can insult a client and expect that behaviour to not have an impact on his business. Once it's on a screen, it can be all over the internet. The client is right at telling him he must get over himself because he has a greater than life ego. That or he has a very low IQ.

In fairness there are plenty of tricks where someone will send a provider to some random address on an "outcall" as a joke and 50% of clients who fall through on appointments just don't show without any warning. 

OTOH these guys are often making $1000/day now even with the headaches. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by tassojunior

[Mo Mason]

I like the idea of paying a deposit, and I have done it before.  I can understand providers not wanting to waste time communicating with potential flakes and time wasters, so the deposit shows that I'm serious about meeting, and it usually kicks off a very rewarding flow of communication.  From my experience, once deposits are paid providers make you feel special by texting frequently and asking questions... things that are less likely without the deposit.

And I might be alone on this one but, in the excerpt from Ryan Rose's messages, I think the client is the jerk.  He politely stated his deposit requirement and reasons for it and the client called him ridiculous and told him to get over himself.  Rude.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

If you have a good business reputation, deposits are fine.  It's just a way to ensure everyone is serious about the date, especially if it's for a longer engagement or involves complex travel arrangements.

While I don't like the response that Rose gave to the asshole would-be client, I understand where he's coming from.  

What he should have simply said is 'thank you for your message, have a great night' and blocked (or just ignored).

You cannot control what people say, but you can always control how you react.  Stay out of the mud.

 

 

[+ glutes]

No $$ up front from Glutes.

[HoleTrainer]

21 hours ago, tassojunior said:

Providers do have scheduling problems and there needs to be trustworthy deposits from strangers. But Ryan's a poor spokesperson for that cause. 

Lol I was about to comment similarly.

I paid a deposit to schedule my first massage with a new massage therapist.  They were a stranger but came recommended by a friend.  The recommendation from a mutual friend did NOT stop me from being required to make a deposit.  I didn’t like making the deposit digitally.  I would have preferred to pay the entire balance in cash.  I started adding my deposit for the next session to my balance and tip at the end of my previous session just so I could take care of the deposit in cash.  Never did I ever think that I should be offended that this service provider wanted me to make a deposit in order to schedule.  Time is money.  And in an unregulated industry without any accountability mechanisms, a deposit is the only way to ensure that your time is compensated for.

If someone literally does sit around their Incall all day, or host from home, where they’re usually hanging out, I can understand not needing to require deposits.  But it would be really nice if clients would be less offended when people in different circumstances do ask for them.  For example, suppose I am renting a hotel room off dayuse to host every client, and it costs me $90 to do so.  Is it really that crazy for me to ask for a $100 deposit before I do so?  That’s not even compensating for my time.  That’s gas money and hotel fee.

Currently I don’t even ask for deposits unless I am arranging to travel far to meet someone. Because I feel that the request is treated with hostility and suspicion on Rentmen.

All that said, with regard to the escort mentioned in the OP, although I feel for his frustration, there was no need to punch down at street workers and degrade them out of frustration over people questioning his deposit requirements. That’s kind of ugly.

Edited June 23, 2021 by HoleTrainer

[+ tassojunior]

13 minutes ago, HoleTrainer said:

 

All that said, with regard to the escort mentioned in the OP, although I feel for his frustration, there was no need to punch down at street workers and degrade them out of frustration over people questioning his deposit requirements. That’s kind of ugly.

If you knew him you'd realize it was projection. 

[+ tassojunior]

10 hours ago, RyanDean said:

In principle, I would not be opposed to paying an "appointment confirmation fee" but, yeah, it's the logistics that introduce all kinds of problems: non-anonymous payment mechanisms; inconsistency as to whether the deposit is part of the appointment fee or on top of it; the actual amount of the deposit; no mechanism for when the provider does the ghosting... I will say that I have considered such a fee when the gent adds a caveat like "for first-time clients" because that seems both reasonable and responsible (and like it's not a hustle). But even then it's the anonymity of the payment mechanism that remains my primary sticking point.

And can you imagine how many fakers would glom onto "advance deposits" as their primary grift were they to become the norm?

 

I'm 100% for deposits if possible with personal info withheld. What I worry about too is the scammers and fake ads who could use this. And they will. 

Rentman would have to get much more reliable.

Maybe Rentmen should set up an escrow 😂🤣😅

[HoseMaster]

No deposits for me.  I've been ripped off before, have seen friends ripped off before, and read it on these forums too many times before.  Too easy to "take the money and run".  I even had one guy I bought and paid a round-trip airline ticket for from the East Coast.  Once I bought the ticket, he asked for a deposit.  I told him the plane ticket I just bought for him WAS the deposit.  He insisted still on the deposit, so I canceled the plane ticket within the 24-hour window.

[Guest]

Deposits are pretty common in the F4M market, and depend largely on the reputation of the provider. People have creative ways of making deposits anonymous, such as gift cards or crypto. 

Here in the M4M world, it's less of a thing - usually just for travel, hotels, and longer appointments. I'd like to see that change, and I agree with @tassojunior's comment about RM needing to get more reliable. I have found it difficult to make it clear to potential clients that I'm in this biz for the long haul, and have no interest in self-sabotaging by running away with a deposit and never seeing them. I can see why it's hard to make that judgement when just one platform hosts all the professionals right alongside all the......less professionals. This forum and twitter help for demonstrating legitimacy, but the majority of my clients aren't using them.  

[Gymowner]

Well this is very similar to issues in the gym industry with personal trainers. I always heard of gyms allowing the personal trainer to collect fees upfront then provide sessions in the future. Not a problem right? Wrong! If the trainer skipped town or the client wasnt satisfied and wanted a new trainer do you think that trainer had the money for a refund or to pass on to the new trainer? That money was long gone. And who do you think the irate client demanded the money from? The gym of course! Or else they demanded their membership money back and black balled the gym.

I never went this route. My clubs always collected the training money and when each session was completed, then the trainer was paid. No exceptions made! It protected the client as well as the trainer. If the client wanted a new trainer... no problems. The trainer was also protected if the client didnt give reasonable cancellation time, he or she got paid. It was in the training contract.

If there were more escort agencies this could easily be resolved with the same business model. The client would send money ahead of time to the company so the escort would know the money was paid. If the escort flaked then the company could try to send another escort as soon as they could OR refund the money. Paying any small company like a remodeling business ahead of time risks the company not being legitimate and flake out of town with very little recourse. It is what it is.