Philadelphia

[ericwinters]

No politics!

 

But can anyone discuss the legal differences between the city and county? I know they are the same geographic area. If there is no difference why have both? I'm clueless.

[+ augustus]

No politics!

 

But can anyone discuss the legal differences between the city and county? I know they are the same geographic area. If there is no difference why have both? I'm clueless.

 

 

A county nearly always contains multiple towns and cities. The County has certain functions like the Superior Courts which deal with civil and criminal matters. The towns have their own municipal courts which deal with traffic issue and misdemeanor crimes. NYC is unique where the City actually contains 5 counties or boroughs as they are known (Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, the Bronx and Manhattan). Counties also have functions that serve all the towns within them like road maintenance and recycling plants and boards of elections.

[+ RJD]

I lived in Philly my whole life, just moved to the suburbs a couple years ago. There is no difference. The city of Philadelphia is Philadelphia county, unlike the suburbs where there are usually multiple townships/cities within a county. Locals never refer to the city as Philadelphia county.

Edited November 7, 2020 by RJD

[+ WilliamM]

I like Rick Santorum on CNN. He is fair to Democrats and Republicans now, as he was off camera when a Senator.

[MikeBiDude]

In California we have the City and County of San Francisco.

[+ DynamicUno]

The city and county of Philadelphia have been consolidated since 1854, any other subdivisions (townships cities, etc) that existed before the consolidation were aggregated into combined government. It's effectively one entity as far as the State is concerned, but there are probably some obscure differentiations for certain officials based on the state constitution or law governing county or city governments.

Edited November 6, 2020 by DynamicUno

[mike carey]

This is interesting. I had a vague idea that cities and counties (or parishes) were overlapping entities in the US. The explanation for Philly helps me make sense of it, as does @augustus' explanation of the overlapping jurisdictional issues. Here we have one layer of local government jurisdictional areas, whether they are called cities, municipalities or shires. There are no cities or towns that have any sort of local government overlaid on them. Also, they don't have their own courts or police, they are all run by the state government.

[Islesguy]

This is interesting. I had a vague idea that cities and counties (or parishes) were overlapping entities in the US. The explanation for Philly helps me make sense of it, as does @augustus' explanation of the overlapping jurisdictional issues. Here we have one layer of local government jurisdictional areas, whether they are called cities, municipalities or shires. There are no cities or towns that have any sort of local government overlaid on them. Also, they don't have their own courts or police, they are all run by the state government.

Most cities are smaller than the counties in which they lie like Houston which is in Harris county but the county is bigger than the city limits. NYC is one of the few that encompasses multiple counties. And there a couple that exist in two different states like Kansas City, which is in both Kansas and Missouri though I am pretty sure there are different city governments in each state.

[rvwnsd]

Most cities are smaller than the counties in which they lie like Houston which is in Harris county but the county is bigger than the city limits. NYC is one of the few that encompasses multiple counties. And there a couple that exist in two different states like Kansas City, which is in both Kansas and Missouri though I am pretty sure there are different city governments in each state.

You are right, Kansas City Missouri and Kansas City Kansas are two different municipal entities.

 

In most cases, the city and the county are separate entities, but in some they are essentially consolidated into one. Los Angeles County, CA and the city of Los Angeles are different entities as are San Diego County, CA and the city of San Diego. In both cases, the counties encompass municipalities and unincorporated areas other than the namesake city. On the other hand, The City and County of San Francisco are one in the same.

 

Counties tend to handle property assessment, courts, recording of deeds, policing of unincorporated areas (and sometimes incorporated communities that are too small to have their own police force), jails, and other broad-reaching functions that are more efficiently handled by one entity on behalf of multiple communities.

 

A few fun facts:

 

• The city of Baltimore, MD is not part of Baltimore County, MD.
  
• Here in Arizona, Phoenix is located in Maricopa County, but the City of Maricopa is located in Pinal County, not in Maricopa County.
  
• Although not widely known, the City of Chicago spans two counties: Cook (in which most of the city lies) and DuPage. The DuPage portion is adjacent to O'Hare International Airport, which is owned by the City.
  

[+ DynamicUno]

Most cities are smaller than the counties in which they lie like Houston which is in Harris county but the county is bigger than the city limits. NYC is one of the few that encompasses multiple counties. And there a couple that exist in two different states like Kansas City, which is in both Kansas and Missouri though I am pretty sure there are different city governments in each state.

 

The two Kansas Cities are separate legal entities governed by their respective states. They may have intercity/interstate coordinating boards, which help with reginal concerns like transportation, but the cities themselves are still legally separate. I'm pretty sure there are no US cities with a single government that straddle a state border. Generally, in the US, interstate coordination is often governed by compacts between the related states (like the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey).

 

Washington DC could have been considered an exception, but it really was a district carved out of Maryland and Virginia and set up as it's own area administered by Congress. Later the Virgina portion was ceded back as Arlington county. Today, the Washington Metropolitan area requires coordination with two state governments, the City of Washington DC, and the federal government which governs the District, which may be the most complex intersection of government entities I can think of in the US.

 

There are many US cities that cross county boundaries. Atlanta is one, which is primarily in Fulton county but a portion crosses into Dekalb county to the east. In some states it's more common than in others. The main difference is that certain things like property taxes and jury duty are under the county jurisdiction, but the city provides most services. Each state treats cities a little differently, though there's some regional patterns based on when the states were settled and organized (the Midwest in particular, was shaped by the Northwest Ordinance).

 

All of which is only fascinating if you're boring like me...

[ericwinters]

Love this ? post's replies

[+ robear]

Denver is also a city and county. And the capital of the State of Colorado. Historically part of the vast Arapahoe County formed by the Kansas Territorial legislature, it was created as a separate city and county in 1901.

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

I grew up in Indianapolis. It is the primary city in Marion County. But there were also three other cities within the county lines: Lawrence, Beech Grove, and Speedway. Basically the city of Indianapolis grew around those cities, but the cities themselves have never been dissolved. Several years ago, many functions that were duplicative between the city and county were consolidated into one uni-government entity, such as the city police and the county sheriff. However, there are still some services, primarily schools and fire departments that are run by the nine townships within Marion County.

[+ Charlie]

Philadelphia was originally a city within Philadelphia county, but they eventually became co-terminous. Virginia is an unusual state in that it has independent cities that are not a part of any county. When my parents moved to Virginia Beach, it was a city within Princess Anne County, but eventually the independent city took over the entire county, which ceased to exist as a separate entity.

[former lurker]

It seems odd to have two names for the same entity, but its probably to conform with the wording of the State or Commonwealth laws. I'm assuming PA assigns certain functions to the counties, so Philadelphia has to remain a county to exercise those functions without having to revise the statutes.

[ericwinters]

It seems odd to have two names for the same entity, but its probably to conform with the wording of the State or Commonwealth laws. I'm assuming PA assigns certain functions to the counties, so Philadelphia has to remain a county to exercise those functions without having to revise the statutes.

 

Interesting... so what really are the differentials for states designated as a commonwealth? Ty

[former lurker]

Interesting... so what really are the differentials for states designated as a commonwealth? Ty

 

Nothing. The four Commonwealths function exactly as any state. It's just a name. Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Virginia are named as Commonwealths.

[wsc]

In the Colonial days of America, in the time leading up to the War for Independence, "commonwealth" (as in "owned in common") was seen by some as a more pointed rejection of a "divine right" style of government and a stronger rejection of monarchy. It may be a little more than complete coincidence that Massachusetts (which bore the brunt of England's suppression of independence sentiments) and Virginia (with firebrands such as Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson, and which introduced the original motion for independence in the Continental Congress), styled themselves as "commonwealths." Pennsylvania, the home of that Congress and of Doctor Franklin, may have had similar motivations. Kentucky most likely is a commonwealth because it was given birth by Virginia and retained that style as part of its heritage. In actual practice, there is no difference between states and commonwealths in the US.

 

In most states of the US, cities within a county are subordinate to the ordinances enacted by the county governments, unless specifically exempted by that county government, and the Sheriff of the county has full jurisdiction in the cities and towns of the county. Acts of city governments have no effect outside their city limits and city police have no jurisdiction in the county.

 

Virginia is a unique exception in that cities and counties there are completely separate. The City of Richmond, for example, is effectively surrounded by Henrico County, but neither has any jurisdiction of any kind in the other. An accurate map of Virginia will display little "islands" for places such as Richmond, Charlottesville, Winchester, and Fredericksburg, among others, showing that these city jurisdictions, surrounded by their neighboring county, are, in fact, independent of that county.

 

And now you know.

[samhexum]

Denver is also a city and county.

It seems odd to have two names for the same entity.

 

 

Baltimore city isn't part of Baltimore county.

 

Baltimore County is the third-most populous county located in the U.S. state of Maryland and is part of the Baltimore metropolitan area and Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area (a combined statistical area).

 

Baltimore (/ˈbɔːltɪmɔːr/ BAWL-tim-or, locally: /ˈbɔːlmər/) is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Maryland, as well as the 30th most populous city in the United States, with a population of 593,490 in 2019. Baltimore is the largest independent city in the country and was designated as such by the Constitution of Maryland in 1851.

 

In the United States, an independent city is a city that is not in the territory of any county or counties, with certain exceptions. Independent cities are classified by the United States Census Bureau as "county equivalents", and may also have similar governmental powers as a consolidated city-county. However in the case of a consolidated city-county, a city and a county were merged into a unified jurisdiction in which the county at least nominally exists to this day, whereas an independent city was legally separated from any county or merged with a county that simultaneously ceased to exist even in name.

[Luv2play]

When I was spending a lot of time in Florida, I was struck by how large Jacksonville looked on the maps, much more vast than Miami. But then I learned that the City of Jacksonville, which has a smaller population than Miami, is consolidated w

In the Colonial days of America, in the time leading up to the War for Independence, "commonwealth" (as in "owned in common") was seen by some as a more pointed rejection of a "divine right" style of government and a stronger rejection of monarchy. It may be a little more than complete coincidence that Massachusetts (which bore the brunt of England's suppression of independence sentiments) and Virginia (with firebrands such as Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson, and which introduced the original motion for independence in the Continental Congress), styled themselves as "commonwealths." Pennsylvania, the home of that Congress and of Doctor Franklin, may have had similar motivations. Kentucky most likely is a commonwealth because it was given birth by Virginia and retained that style as part of its heritage. In actual practice, there is no difference between states and commonwealths in the US.

 

In most states of the US, cities within a county are subordinate to the ordinances enacted by the county governments, unless specifically exempted by that county government, and the Sheriff of the county has full jurisdiction in the cities and towns of the county. Acts of city governments have no effect outside their city limits and city police have no jurisdiction in the county.

 

Virginia is a unique exception in that cities and counties there are completely separate. The City of Richmond, for example, is effectively surrounded by Henrico County, but neither has any jurisdiction of any kind in the other. An accurate map of Virginia will display little "islands" for places such as Richmond, Charlottesville, Winchester, and Fredericksburg, among others, showing that these city jurisdictions, surrounded by their neighboring county, are, in fact, independent of that county.

 

And now you know.

Just to add the origin of “Commonwealth” from British history, when Oliver Cromwell chopped of the head of King Charles I, he styled himself the Lord Protector of the Commonwealth, and thus not a king. For his relatively short reign, England was not a monarchy. People often think the British monarchy goes back a thousand years but this is not so. There was that “interregnum” which I am sure monarchists would prefer to forget.

[wsc]

When I was spending a lot of time in Florida, I was struck by how large Jacksonville looked on the maps, much more vast than Miami. But then I learned that the City of Jacksonville, which has a smaller population than Miami, is consolidated w

 

Just to add the origin of “Commonwealth” from British history, when Oliver Cromwell chopped of the head of King Charles I, he styled himself the Lord Protector of the Commonwealth, and thus not a king. For his relatively short reign, England was not a monarchy. People often think the British monarchy goes back a thousand years but this is not so. There was that “interregnum” which I am sure monarchists would prefer to forget.

To provide a different perspective on Cromwell and the Interregnum -

 

Under the rules and customs in effect at the time, when the head of Charles I fell off his shoulders, his son and heir immediately became king. Such a transition occurs in an instant of time. Hence the shout., "The king is dead; long live the king!"

 

Charles II status in exile obviously denied him the ability to rule in England during the period of the Commonwealth, but he could still claim the king's title, and do so legitimately. Any act made and approved by the Commonwealth parliament that would alter the government of England could not be considered as valid without the Crown's assent, which was neither sought nor received.

 

Had the Commonwealth continued, all the foregoing would be entirely irrelevant, but the Restoration of 1660 gives it credence. After 11 years of Roundhead rule in the Interregnum, Parliament invited Charles II to return to England and take the throne. His absence during those 11 years, then, could be considered a reign in absentia.

 

Contrast that absentia, forced on Charles, with the later one of his brother and heir, James II, who hastily and willingly fled England in the Glorious Revolution of 1688, to be replaced on the throne by his eldest daughter Mary and her husband, William of Orange, after Parliament declared James II's abandonment of the throne as equivalent to abdication.

 

The significance of these events culminated in the Act of Settlement of 1701, wherein Parliament firmly established that it, not the Crown, shall say who sits on the throne of the kingdom. The trappings of power would be retained by the monarchy, but real power would now be with the people and their parliament.

 

BTW, the motive underlying all this drama of the Glorious Revolution and the later Act of Settlement was to prevent a Catholic from ever again wearing the crown. James II was the last Catholic king of England, and even in this 21st century, he likely always will be.

[Islesguy]

Considering most people leave off city when referring to New York City, the fact that Manhattan is also New York County, means New York, New York, New York is a thing. In actuality, the County of New York is in the City of New York in the State of New York as those are the official names of those places.

[Guest]

I like Rick Santorum on CNN. He is fair to Democrats and Republicans now, as he was off camera when a Senator.

Wow. A complete non-sequitur to the OP, but Santorum is one of the most vociferously anti-gay politicians of all time. An anti-gay legend, in fact. Whatever prompted you to bring that up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Santorum's_views_on_homosexuality

[Guest]

Most cities provide for their own police departments, fire departments, city roads, and city courts for minor crimes. In California, by law, city attorneys can't prosecute felonies. Counties provide for roads between cities (other than state or Interstate highways), law protection in non-incorporated areas (the Sheriff and his deputies), public health, and felony prosecutions and trials. Some small cities contract with the sheriff's department to provide their law enforcement. West Hollywood did that when they incorporated into a city. I don't know if they still do.

San Francisco is the only "City and County" in California. Those who run the City and County are titled Supervisors (as in County Supervisors for other counties), rather than city council members.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Unicorn

[+ WilliamM]

Wow. A complete non-sequitur to the OP, but Santorum is one of the most vociferously anti-gay politicians of all time. An anti-gay legend, in fact. Whatever prompted you to bring that up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Santorum's_views_on_homosexuality

Last time I checked Rick Santorum is a conservative political figure who gives his opinions to CNN. If you want to concerns about gays, please do it in political forum