Are You Getting Massages?

[RandyVue]

I haven’t had a massage since February due to lockdown, but I haven’t had any human touch in 4 months and Im getting the urge and its becoming irresistible. I cant imagine waiting until January to get a massage. I know Im not the only one. Have any of you went ahead and hired?

[Guest]

no massage this year.

[Otto]

I haven’t had a massage since February due to lockdown, but I haven’t had any human touch in 4 months and Im getting the urge and its becoming irresistible. I cant imagine waiting until January to get a massage. I know Im not the only one. Have any of you went ahead and hired?

Why January?

[+ beethoven]

I assume that some people say January because they believe that a vaccine will be available by then. I think that's highly optimistic. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[RandyVue]

Why January?

Because hypothetically and hopefully there will be a vaccine by then but it could even be longer than that

Edited July 12, 2020 by RandyVue

[NJ_hiker]

Yes, I started in June. Had one guy who lives in the neighboring township visit my place. But I visited NYC for the first time last week to see one of my regulars. I live across the river from Manhattan.

[newportbeachdude77]

I haven't had one since first week of March and I'm going to wait until there is a vaccine, however long that is. Just seems too risky. I've jerked off with a few guys on cam and that's gonna be all I do for awhile. It sucks but I really don't want to risk getting sick.

[allyouknow]

Got a massage today and apparently business is getting better in nyc. Most people are tested ( and are aware to stay home if not feeling well.) Besides almost everyone in NYC is wearing masks.

[Scott Dixon]

My last massage was February 2. I've been tempted, too, especially by therapists contacting me with descriptions of their COVID protocols; however, with the uptick in Texas, I'm refraining. Until when, I cannot say. I just received my COVID results--negative, and I intend to stay that way.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Scott Dixon

[MisterMike]

This thread is full of problematic people who are probably helping to spread COVID. Please, please, please read up on the science and STAY HOME.

[Guest]

I 100% agree. Some folks are just crazy. Stay home. Do NOT think of going to someone near that can cause your life.

[Guest]

Got a massage today and apparently business is getting better in nyc. Most people are tested ( and are aware to stay home if not feeling well.) Besides almost everyone in NYC is wearing masks.

Not completely true. I have seen people without even mask.

[+ E.T.Bass]

Still "no" for me.

Infection rates climbing here.

 

One of my reliable providers threw in the towel this week. Sad times.

[Kody S]

Everyone’s risk calculation and tolerance is different. It’s safest not to because you don’t know who the masseur has seen even if you think the masseur is otherwise safe and healthy. Yet we are social creatures who need touch and human contact and there in lies the drama. For me it’s a clear “no” on travelers or unknown masseurs. Too risky. Someone you know extremely well and both recently tested negative... and facedown only outside or a well ventilated space... Maybe? Know the risks and the science.

[big dale]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

If after knowing all that you still think a massage is worth it, you are indicating that you do not care about others. You do not care about the life of the provider. You do not care about the lives of those other people in your life whom you come into contact with. You are selfish.

 

This is not political. This is science. Zoom out. Think beyond your "needs". Help save lives and end this fucking thing.

[Scott Dixon]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

If after knowing all that you still think a massage is worth it, you are indicating that you do not care about others. You do not care about the life of the provider. You do not care about the lives of those other people in your life whom you come into contact with. You are selfish.

 

This is not political. This is science. Zoom out. Think beyond your "needs". Help save lives and end this fucking thing.

 

You are a national treasure!

[RandyVue]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

If after knowing all that you still think a massage is worth it, you are indicating that you do not care about others. You do not care about the life of the provider. You do not care about the lives of those other people in your life whom you come into contact with. You are selfish.

 

This is not political. This is science. Zoom out. Think beyond your "needs". Help save lives and end this fucking thing.

Great answer!

[Trick]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

If after knowing all that you still think a massage is worth it, you are indicating that you do not care about others. You do not care about the life of the provider. You do not care about the lives of those other people in your life whom you come into contact with. You are selfish.

 

This is not political. This is science. Zoom out. Think beyond your "needs". Help save lives and end this fucking thing.

 

I know of people who’ve tested positive without any symptoms. They’ve shed it and moved on. Lucky them

 

I also know of people who are still in ICUs after months of suffering. Also those with symptoms of brain, kidney, and liver damage after shedding the virus. Unlucky them.

 

I also know of one who died of COVID they got from attending a party where one asymptotic teen later tested positive. Tragic and unlucky.

 

Friends, how’s your luck?

[Otto]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

5. There is no known effective vaccine. Currently.

[+ FrankR]

I know of people who’ve tested positive without any symptoms. They’ve shed it and moved on. Lucky them

 

I also know of people who are still in ICUs after months of suffering. Also those with symptoms of brain, kidney, and liver damage after shedding the virus. Unlucky them.

 

I also know of one who died of COVID they got from attending a party where one asymptotic teen later tested positive. Tragic and unlucky.

 

Friends, how’s your luck?

[Scott Dixon]

I know of people who’ve tested positive without any symptoms. They’ve shed it and moved on. Lucky them

 

I also know of people who are still in ICUs after months of suffering. Also those with symptoms of brain, kidney, and liver damage after shedding the virus. Unlucky them.

 

I also know of one who died of COVID they got from attending a party where one asymptotic teen later tested positive. Tragic and unlucky.

 

Friends, how’s your luck?

 

Thanks for asking. I've been masking, distancing, isolating since March. Even so, I was in the presence of a small group of people inside of a large auditorium; three of those people tested positive and told the rest of us, all of whom have tested negative and ramped up our protocols even more. One of the positives (an otherwise healthy and fit 40-something man) has been alternating good week/bad week for more than a month; another one has had no symptoms at all; and the third one (a 57-year-old with lupus) died of COVID within two weeks of testing positive. So I do feel fortunate and am taking no chances.

[dbar123]

I had Covid back in March. Recently starting getting massages again from a guy that I know really well and trust.

[musclvr]

Ugh. And here we go again. @big dale, @kenomora, @MisterMike, others and I should just start linking to a factsheet. I really like Big Dale's response in this thread. I don't have much to add editorially but a lot to add science-wise.

 

Just because you've recovered from Covid, don't assume you have long-term immunity. We don't know enough yet. Antibody responses wane over time and the neutralizing antibody response in a person may disappear. Not everybody develops a neutralizing antibody response. We don't know enough yet about T-cell responses because they are harder to assess. That individuals still get recurrent colds caused by related-coronaviruses* probably means that immunity is not perpetual (unlike for example, measles or smallpox). Maybe a large percentage of us carry pre-existing T-cell responses against SARS-CoV-2 from cross-reactivity with other coronaviruses but that may only ameliorate the severity rather than prevent infections. You may be asymptomatic or feel just a little "not-normal" but you're still spewing virus.

 

*Have you ever had one of those colds that felt like you just couldn't shake it? Regular cold symptoms for a week or so and then residual congestion, dizziness, lethargy, and cloudy-headedness that went on for a month or more? You went into work because you had to but just felt like crap and getting through the workday took every ounce of energy out of you? That was probably a coronavirus.

 

The vaccine data are being overly-hyped by the lay press, not to mention some of the medical journals and the orange-potato in the White House. Today's CanSino vaccine data look bad. The AstraZeneca/Oxford are only just a little better. Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna are both unproven modalities, and Moderna may have some associated adverse events that may be serious in an older population (SAEs in the technical parlance). We don't know how long immunity will last. Early data are that people >55 years in age mounted lowered immune responses, as should be expected. Chances are good that the first vaccines are going to be partially protective, rushed through approval for Trump's election campaign, and, I'd bet, elicit some life-threatening SAEs in older and/or co-morbid (immune compromised - HIV, autoimmune disease -, hypertensive etc.) populations. Then there are manufacturing and supply chain issues. So don't expect a magic bullet in January 2021 and unless you're a frontline healthcare worker in a major population center, don't expect anything.

 

Therapeutic/prophylactic antibodies are super-expensive to make and will probably be reserved for acute interventions. And most companies are pursuing a strategy that might ameliorate symptoms but could evolutionarily select for escaper mutants that could be worse (just like the early monovalent anti-HIV drugs selected for resistant viruses - and why PREP as a get-out-of-jail-free card for promiscuous unprotected anal sex still scares me just a little bit).

 

As a species this virus and us are just getting started at ~6 months into the pandemic. It is rapidly evolving and adapting... hello D614G. The US has really blown it. Do your part. If you do decide to take a risk behavior like a massage or more, be prepared for the consequences and then stf away from other people for 2 weeks.

 

Anything else is fucking magical thinking, ignorance or utter selfishness.

Edited July 20, 2020 by musclvr

[Otto]

While the science is changing rapidly and we are learning more every day, these facts are not disputable based on what we know today:

1. You can pick this thing up and not know for 14 days that you have it.

2. During that 14 day period you can spread it.

3. The virus seems to throw different symptoms in different people and outcomes vary wildly. You do not need to be elderly or immunocompromised to have a very, very bad outcome.

4. There is no cure. If you catch it and survive you could still spend life connected to breathing machines, need organ transplants, etc.

 

If after knowing all that you still think a massage is worth it, you are indicating that you do not care about others. You do not care about the life of the provider. You do not care about the lives of those other people in your life whom you come into contact with. You are selfish.

 

This is not political. This is science. Zoom out. Think beyond your "needs". Help save lives and end this fucking thing.

 

Dale, thank you for the above on spot post. I have sent it to friends, domestic and foreign.

[kenomora]

I had Covid back in March.

Oh dear, please tell you me you were not implying that it was ok for you to not worry about getting it again. Long term protective immunity has not been demonstrated, while there are many reports of reinfection or relapse. @musclvr did a great job of explaining that not everyone develops neutralizing antibodies, which are the antibodies that can render the virus non-infectious. Only about 10% of people who've had COVID-19 become what they call "elite neutralizer" See below screen cap from this presentation:

 

width=554pxhttps://i.ibb.co/wpxTJDV/Screen-Shot-2020-07-20-at-9-40-42-PM.png[/img]

Basically, they tested blood collected from >350 patients who recovered from COVID-19 in NY for the presence of neutralizing antibodies. As you can see above, the neutralizing capabilities of over 300 patients were so low (in the red line) it may not have been protective, while elite neutralizers have clearly developed protective immunity that actually reduced rates of infection in a cell culture model. Patients in the non-elite group did develop antibodies, but not necessarily neutralizing or protective. This is basically to show you that you really cannot believe you would be protected simply because you have previously been infected. Also, most of the evidence now suggests that even these neutralizing antibodies wane over time, sometime falling below putative protective levels within a few months.

 

From my opinion, the vaccines are not going to be silver bullets. Experience from SARS-CoV and other CoV suggested that it is not going to be easy.

 

Another point I'd like to make is when I see people say "I have tested negative, and so did my provider" I do worry about the type of testing done on them. There are a ton of tests out there that have been approved through Emergency Use Authorization by the FDA. Do you know what that means? The EUA tests are not as well vetted/tested and the manufacturers do not have to submit extensive data on test performance in order to be able to start selling their tests. The FDA website has all the package inserts for these tests, and if you read some of them you'd be surprised how little is known about the performance of some of these tests. Basically, right now there are 3 types of tests you can get:

 

1. Molecular tests: These are tests that detect the presence of viral RNA. They are generally considered more sensitive than other types of test. If you got your test done in a hospital or a large reference lab and you had to wait a few days, there's a good chance that they used a molecular test. Again, not all molecular tests were made equal. Do you remember the Abbott ID NOW that the POTUS was a poster child for a few months ago where he got tested with this instrument? Although it is a molecular test, the technology they use for amplification of signal to indicate the presence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA is significantly inferior to other methods like PCR. It is so bad that they had to change the package insert to say something along the line of "if you test negative on this test you should get tested again with another molecular method". It's silly, but that's the truth.

2. Antigen tests: These are mostly rapid tests performed at health fairs, some field testing units, or smaller clinics. The advantages of these tests is that they are fast and not terribly expensive, and they are considered "waived" tests that are low-complexity and can be performed anywhere. However, the sensitivity is so appallingly low that, again, if you test negative on these tests you need to get retested with a molecular test.

3. Antibody tests: These are blood tests that would detect if you have developed IgM and/or IgG antibodies agains SARS-CoV-2. Literally, all we know now is that if you're positive for IgM, or IgM, or both, you've been infected in the past. Typically, for other infectious diseases the presence of IgM indicates a recent infection while IgG indicates past infections. Unfortunately, in COVID-19 IgM and IgG antibodies come up almost simultaneously so there is no use trying to distinguish between the two. The clinical utility of these antibody tests has not yet been established. Our lab performs the testing, but provides no interpretation because we simply do not know what it means!

 

I brought up all of these because when people say "I have been tested", they really need to know what kind of test was done. YOU NEED TO ASK! Was it a sensitive molecular test? Or did you just go a tent and got an antigen test? Or did you get an antibody test which is largely useless? The media tend to oversimplify the nuances of clinical testing and this results in the the public thinking they know better than lab professionals.

 

@big dale wrote really nice key points on the infection and transmission that really help some of us understand the epidemiology of the disease. Great job!

 

Just adding another terrifying news I heard today. A report from Belgium demonstrated a few strains of SARS-CoV-2 that had a mutation in the E gene, which is used as a target of detection for one of the biggest automated tests out there and this mutation led to the assay not being able to detect the presence of the virus. This is one of the first reports of mutations that could result in false negative results, and I imagine we will hear more and more about other variants that can escape detection by different platforms of diagnostic tests. Fun times.