Why does having sex with clients tend to lead to long term regulars, but with apps and bars, it doesn't?

[Jarrod_Uncut]

Just curious on the opinion of those.

 

I just find it discouraging that I can meet a guy my type, have perfect sex, and perfect chemistry...and it rarely go anywhere beyond the first meet. This would explain majority of my interactions with gay guys. I have tried to make sense of not having sex with someone when I first meet, but it doesn't always make any difference.

 

Yet, I have clients who obviously we connected on a first meet, and known each other for months and years. I know every situation isn't promised to be one thing or the other, but I try to wonder if hooking up with guys outside of clients on a first meet...is a bad idea.

 

At the same time, it's like what are the alternatives? With many gay guys being relatively single, and not married...who really wants to go on 3 or 4 dates with a guy in hopes that something long term comes out of it? It's almost easier to fuck first, and get to know each other afterwards....but more often than not that rarely happens.

 

It may not be an issue for guys who are already established with a circle of friends, relatives, and work functions...but some of us likely don't have a huge social network to fall back on. My social and entertainment network consists of clients, the occasional bar hop, and social media/hookup apps. My friend circle is somewhat varied. They either live out of state or we fucked, and are fuck buddies. There's just no other consistent alternative. The gyms are usually filled with married and partnered straights, out in public usually is hit or miss.

[orville]

From a gay guy who has lived more than 5 decades: It's really simple, and complicated. Gays don't want to date, mostly fuck. Also, gays are complicated and the older we get, things get worse. Just the other night I had put so much hope in this date, turned out to be a tragedy cause I discovered in the process that I had nothing in common with who I thought it was going to be Mr. Right (or at least Mr Right for a while), so I ended up calling one of my regular guys to save the night. I apologize in advance if I appear to cynical with this I'm going to say: I think most gay guys get into relationships just to divide bills, have a better standard of living, and then open the relationship so they can get in the end what they were really looking for, to fuck with as many guys as possible. Human beings as most mammals are not monogamous by nature. Monogamy is a social convention. Marriage is a contract of sex work paid in installments.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

I apologize in advance if I appear to cynical with this I'm going to say: I think most gay guys get into relationships just to divide bills, have a better standard of living, and then open the relationship so they can get in the end what they were really looking for, to fuck with as many guys as possible. Human beings as most mammals are not monogamous by nature. Monogamy is a social convention. Marriage is a contract of sex work paid in installments.

 

No apology needed. I think you're spot on 100%.

 

But I'll give benefit of doubt that perhaps if they don't enter into relationships with that prerogative, they certainly stay in them for that. I have known a handful of gay relationships that were doing perfect when they were together: car, house, big parties. When they broke up, one was usually doing better than the other...but they both took a financial hit. Didn't see them out partying at the clubs much after that. And for the most part, they did stay open. Legend had it the person was in a relationship or had a partner, but played freely.

 

So what's the solution or alternative? At what point do guys decide to just simultaneously combust and make it into a relationship? What factors have to be in play?

 

Also I made a temporary move in with a client recently, and even though I'm grateful for his accommodation (needed it to transition to my own place), something just doesn't sit right with me because even though we have discussed it's not a boyfriend situation....it still FEELS like a boyfriend situation. He's a bit too lovey dovey than what I can appreciate. I don't want those feelings for him. Sometimes leaving off labels, don't change the biological workings of a situation.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jarrod_Uncut

[dcguy20]

Tale as old as time. When I was in my 20s and 30s (pre apps), I don't ever recall hooking up with the same guy twice, even though that one time was quite pleasurable. It was always about satisfying the urge at that moment.

[Rudynate]

All these guys are relatively "scene"-they go to parties, bars, they're active on social media, they're out looking for sex. But there is another whole group that is nearly invisible to the scene guys, that doesn't do any of that. They're coupled or married. They may be monogamous or mostly so, they work, they travel, they may live in the country, they socialize with each other, they don't have sex with the people in their circles. They stay busy enough with their interests that they don't have time for bars, parties, apps, etc. That's what being a non-scene guy is like. When you are wrapped up in the scene, it's easy to think that that's all there is.

[jawjateck]

The app culture has crossed over into the rent culture. Many younger men have learned the way of the apps and transfer it to their business model. So, quickies work. It's all they know. Too many are anti-social/non-social and cannot imagine the skills required to offer an excellent experience beyond a quickie. I have met many guys over the past few years that I pity because they don't have any meaningful relationships in their lives.

[orville]

All these guys are relatively "scene"-they go to parties, bars, they're active on social media, they're out looking for sex. But there is another whole group that is nearly invisible to the scene guys, that doesn't do any of that. They're coupled or married. They may be monogamous or mostly so, they work, they travel, they may live in the country, they socialize with each other, they don't have sex with the people in their circles. They stay busy enough with their interests that they don't have time for bars, parties, apps, etc. That's what being a non-scene guy is like. When you are wrapped up in the scene, it's easy to think that that's all there is.

I respectfully disagree. I have seen way too many of those couples divorcing too. It just takes them longer, typically 10 to 15 years of marriage or relationship, but they all end up realizing marriage or a long-term relationship is something they were sold as social construct of what is the prosperous right thing to do.

[Rudynate]

Of course even long-term relationships end sometimes. O

 

My point was more that there is a large group of men who find other things to do with their lives than looking for sex. If that seems foreign to you, it's more a function of the people you choose to hang out with than that it doent exist.

[orville]

Of course even long-term relationships end sometimes. O

 

My point was more that there is a large group of men who find other things to do with their lives than looking for sex. If that seems foreign to you, it's more a function of the people you choose to hang out with than that it doent exist.

You are absolutely right. I'm just not sure how many are they against the other group that are most of the time looking for sex, which let's admit it's men's human nature.

[Rudynate]

You are absolutely right. I'm just not sure how many are they against the other group that are most of the time looking for sex, which let's admit it's men's human nature.

 

 

 

And it doesn't mean that that group doesn't look for sex at all. It's just that looking for sex is of lower priority and isn't so public

[marylander1940]

Why does having sex with clients tend to lead to long term regulars, but with apps and bars, it doesn't?

• 
  

 

@Jarrod_Uncut because in the apps they have more free choices just like you do. There's always someone else.

 

From a gay guy who has lived more than 5 decades: It's really simple, and complicated. Gays don't want to date, mostly fuck. Also, gays are complicated and the older we get, things get worse. Just the other night I had put so much hope in this date, turned out to be a tragedy cause I discovered in the process that I had nothing in common with who I thought it was going to be Mr. Right (or at least Mr Right for a while), so I ended up calling one of my regular guys to save the night. I apologize in advance if I appear to cynical with this I'm going to say: I think most gay guys get into relationships just to divide bills, have a better standard of living, and then open the relationship so they can get in the end what they were really looking for, to fuck with as many guys as possible. Human beings as most mammals are not monogamous by nature. Monogamy is a social convention. Marriage is a contract of sex work paid in installments.

 

and now straight men are acting like that too, there's no longer the need to date for a week before sex, it could happen right after meeting.

[Shawn Monroe]

I actually love this question.

 

I'd say that us as providers are at huge disadvantages compared to other gays.

• At the very least, we may or may not be able to tell potential friends what we actually do.
  
• Providers have to have some level of availability. Having a lot of friends doesn't leave a ton of time for that.
  
  • Some say you should find friends by joining activities, which gives you less time for appointments.
    
  • By having less time, people will begin to exclude you from activities since you won't be able to do them.
    

  [*]For us who travel, being out of town a lot leaves less time to find and develop relationships.

  [*]I've tried saying "befriend other escorts - they'll get it". But escorts are competitive (we've heard of the mafias in cities), and they may think you have an ulterior motive.

  [*]Related to what has been said above - many gay relationships are based off of sex. As we get paid to have sex, it can be hard to want to base relationships off of that.

It's funny - when people would ask "How're you doing during COVID?" I'm like "Well I've learned to spend long periods of time by myself in largely one room."

 

Now I won't go into some of the dismissive, divisive and heteronormative comments made above.

 

But two reasons why it's easier to form relationships with clients because:

1. The transactional nature means the expectations are out on the table
   
2. Those clients you see on a regular repeating basis it can be easy to befriend just by the repeating nature of it.
   

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Too many are anti-social/non-social and cannot imagine the skills required to offer an excellent experience beyond a quickie.

 

This.

 

They have zero clue on making great first impressions, being fluent in a wide variety of conversational topics, closing in a clutch situation and simply faking it well in the event they're in over their heads. They either don't care or it reads on them like a large-print book.

 

It's depressing and a big reason why I don't normally have many 20s guys in my circle of friends.

[mike carey]

This.

 

They have zero clue on making great first impressions, being fluent in a wide variety of conversational topics, closing in a clutch situation and simply faking it well in the event they're in over their heads. They either don't care or it reads on them like a large-print book.

 

It's depressing and a big reason why I don't normally have many 20s guys in my circle of friends.

I'll have to stop commenting on your posts and tweets lest I seem to be some sort of over-awed fan boy.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

I'll have to stop commenting on your posts and tweets lest I seem to be some sort of over-awed fan boy.

 

GOD DEFEND NEW ZEALAND!

 

But seriously, you're a happy, positive influence. In the words of Curtis Mayfield:

 

[Monarchy79]

I think most gay guys get into relationships just to divide bills, have a better standard of living, and then open the relationship so they can get in the end what they were really looking for, to fuck with as many guys as possible.

? ??

[Jarrod_Uncut]

All these guys are relatively "scene"-they go to parties, bars, they're active on social media, they're out looking for sex. But there is another whole group that is nearly invisible to the scene guys, that doesn't do any of that. They're coupled or married. They may be monogamous or mostly so, they work, they travel, they may live in the country, they socialize with each other, they don't have sex with the people in their circles. They stay busy enough with their interests that they don't have time for bars, parties, apps, etc. That's what being a non-scene guy is like. When you are wrapped up in the scene, it's easy to think that that's all there is.

 

That's only what they want people around them to think. And they may be rightfully so, around them. But those also be the same ones who tend to perpetuate meeting for convenience only. They have their "regular" life, but once in awhile they'll venture out... And when it's over, they go back to what they were doing before. And forgetting about the guy they just met. Hence why nothing consistent comes out of it.

 

Like one guy I met after we fucked: he says the next morning, "time to get back to reality". So what we did was merely a fantasy. An escape. Nothing more to come about.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

The app culture has crossed over into the rent culture. Many younger men have learned the way of the apps and transfer it to their business model. So, quickies work. It's all they know. Too many are anti-social/non-social and cannot imagine the skills required to offer an excellent experience beyond a quickie. I have met many guys over the past few years that I pity because they don't have any meaningful relationships in their lives.

 

I know an escort like that who lives in my area. Everytime he messaged me, it was about fucking his hole. Finally I told him, “dude...you said you wanted to be travel buddies, but all you’ve ever put on the table is fucking you”. We’ve not actually met because it was always, come over now and fuck. Maybe he’s that type of provider, but I’m not that type of provider. All my clients must book in advance, and hookups are no different.

 

Then he had to audacity to say, “delete his number”. I said, “I already had sex last night and this morning, so I don’t need to meet you for sex today”. I was trying to meet n greet on a respectable level...he just wanted to get stoned and come over a fuck. Which brings me to this:

 

• For us who travel, being out of town a lot leaves less time to find and develop relationships.
  
• I've tried saying "befriend other escorts - they'll get it". But escorts are competitive (we've heard of the mafias in cities), and they may think you have an ulterior motive.
  
• Related to what has been said above - many gay relationships are based off of sex. As we get paid to have sex, it can be hard to want to base relationships off of that.
  

 

But two reasons why it's easier to form relationships with clients because:

1. The transactional nature means the expectations are out on the table
   
2. Those clients you see on a regular repeating basis it can be easy to befriend just by the repeating nature of it.
   

 

100%. That so very true with #1. I think the key is the expectations part. I think deep down some guys feel there’s some expectations to be...expected. Sex first, no expectations later ??‍♂️

 

Traveling brings us into contact with more people, but it can limit the chance for those turning into something worthwhile. I’ve actually been on a little break from traveling due to everything going on (pandemic, peace demonstrations, etc). So in this time I’ve been trying to cultivate some friendships that were missed connections, but I’ve been off the road since March, and the guys STILL aren’t consistent. I spent my whole Memorial Day weekend with no plans with anyone I knew. Fortunately I made up for it the next week when a fuck buddy and his friend came to town, but that really just had me at a low point.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it’s shame or race related. Maybe they feel a way about having gay sexual desires, maybe they feel a way about meeting a guy of a different ethnic background.

 

I know it’s not a city based thing, as it seems to be the same way in most EVERY city in this country.

However, some places seem to be more prone to it than others. Places like Nashville, Orlando, Kansas City: they seem to raise these gay guys in these conservative, backwards, intolerant upbringings, so when they are adult...they don’t know how to be in a relationship. Places like San Francisco, DC, Chicago...gay people seem to understand that you can do more than just meet another man for sex.

 

AND WHY do I always see Black/White straight couples in most any city or suburb, but NEVER any Black/White gay couples except in porn and at gay bars/villages. ? And then when you do, people discriminate and do things that make it difficult to be together. Like the motel clerk last month said, “I didn’t know there was going to be 2 people staying in that room”. Bitch, is it a problem?

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jarrod_Uncut

[MaybeMaybeNot]

I'm newly out to myself, and I find this baffling. I hooked up with a really nice guy before Covid. He offered to be friends, and we talked about what we had in common that we liked to do. When I left, he sent me home with some very delicious peanut butter cookies. When I've messaged him after to check in, no reference to sex in sight, he only sometimes replies, and it is half-heartedly. I am not pursuing anything. I've met guys in bars, made out, and had the same disappearing act after some he expressed an intense desire to stay in touch.

 

In the meantime, the guy that started out as a hook up and sort of has become a meaningful relationship would rather have sex with others than with me. If you spent so many years pursuing sex with dozens of men, it's hard to be satisfied with just one, I guess. But for me, it weakens the connection.

[AceHardware]

However, some places seem to be more prone to it than others. Places like Nashville, Orlando, Kansas City: they seem to raise these gay guys in these conservative, backwards, intolerant upbringings, so when they are adult...they don’t know how to be in a relationship. Places like San Francisco, DC, Chicago...gay people seem to understand that you can do more than just meet another man for sex.

You got that right (I grew up in a conservative area). You are brain-washed for your 1st 18 years of life that anything gay is unmanly, shameful, and sinful. If/when you give in to the urge to hook up with a man, you still hope to "limit the damage" and keep it discreet, with the street-smart conclusion that you can't "live like those people in NYC do." So you focus on straight-acting, which definitely doesn't include having a relationship that any observer could interpret as gay.

[KennF]

I actually love this question.

 

 

But two reasons why it's easier to form relationships with clients because:

1. The transactional nature means the expectations are out on the table
   
2. Those clients you see on a regular repeating basis it can be easy to befriend just by the repeating nature of it.
   

 

Thank you. From my perspective, this is so true. To make a relationship work, both people have to be open and honest with themselves and each other. There needs to be good communication.

 

In the rented relationship, both people become aware of the expectations, and the fear of rejection is limited by the cash. Knowing that, clients are willing to open up more to their inner needs/feelings and a receptive escort can make the choice to share or not. The structure of the 'date' is about discovery of the client, and satisfying their needs. If they are open, and you are satisfying their needs, over time, it becomes reciprocal.

 

In the app world, it is very easy to be rejected and the structure of the 'date' is selfish. Each person want to be the one satisfied. There is no need to open up and be vulnerable. You have no reason to work on communication or learn more about the other person. So, it is more difficult.

 

Just my tuppence.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

In the app world, it is very easy to be rejected and the structure of the 'date' is selfish. Each person want to be the one satisfied. There is no need to open up and be vulnerable. You have no reason to work on communication or learn more about the other person. So, it is more difficult.

 

Just my tuppence.

 

Selfish is the key word. That's what majority of the people there are. I just had an "argument" with a guy from an app I've met last month. For one, it took a whole year to actually meet (didn't live in same town, but only an hour out).

 

Now that we have met and had a hot time and he even seemed up to meet again, he has made 0 effort to try and get us in the same place. Always claims to be working, or being invited to different parties and get togethers... yet has not 1 time asked or invited me to go. Just says he can't invite anyone.

 

I finally called him out on it today. I'm not fixing to be wasting my time on someone who clearly can't be bothered to involve me in anything they do. He seems to have various excuses about how it's private, or he can't invite anybody, and doesn't want to have to worry about someone. Whatever the fuck that means. But yet he says he does want to meet again, and it wasn't a 1 time thing. blah blah blah

 

Just fucking say you don't want to bring me because you feel some shame or don't think I'll feel welcomed. Guys be having 100 excuses. Idk why they try to hold onto something that they know they're not invested in anyway. I'm smart enough to pull the plug if I have to.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

I'm newly out to myself, and I find this baffling. I hooked up with a really nice guy before Covid. He offered to be friends, and we talked about what we had in common that we liked to do. When I left, he sent me home with some very delicious peanut butter cookies. When I've messaged him after to check in, no reference to sex in sight, he only sometimes replies, and it is half-heartedly. I am not pursuing anything. I've met guys in bars, made out, and had the same disappearing act after some he expressed an intense desire to stay in touch.

 

And in cases like this, I've grown to just move on most of the time. Lot of times it don't be worth trying to get them to "be real".

 

At the same time, I do occasionally call guys out if I sense there's no salvaging the relationship any further, and they're being blatantly passive aggressive. Just like in the above response. It's SO FUNNY because, it always gets guys talking...once you call them out on their shit. Then they want to try and protect their integrity, knowing goddamn well they don't have a single fucking ounce of it.

 

But most times, it's not worth it. Lot of these guys are overly inflated trash bags. They only use apps and hookups to get ego boosts. To make themselves feel good about themselves for a short time, and then go back to whatever fake pretend life they live behind the scenes. I been doing this for 20 years, have seen it and heard it all. Like the escort who has been hounding me to fuck him raw, then got mad when I told him I'm not looking to meet on a sex first basis, especially if he's not trying to be on my justforfans. Why the fuck would I want to fuck, just for the sake it? Lol.

 

I was saying on my Facebook the other day: being gay is not a noun. It's a verb. Something that's "done", versus something that "is". But I know that's not how gay people should see things. But I'm just seeing it for how they see it.

[+ DrownedBoy]

Among escorts, I believe there may be a level of hypocrisy. Let me tell a story from when I was in my 20s.

 

There was this hot waiter in his early twenties. He regularly dated guys in their 30s and 40s who always picked up the tab. Then an older gay couple gave him free room and board to spice up their relationship .

 

He met an escort who advertised online. When the guy asked him out, he laughed at him, and called him a "whore" who "sold his body on the Internet."

 

Absolute and complete hypocrisy. The older I get, the more I hang out with guys who share interests besides sex. You get better conversation and boyfriends that way, although in my case, they're far from attractive to me.

[Rudynate]

The sexual marketplace is a great place to find sex, not such a great place to find love, romance or friendship.